# The pitting of people who mistakenly conflate justice with legality (Martin/Zimmerman related) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 20, 2013, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028 "2013-07-20T13:04:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/381 "2013-07-25T00:50:34Z")
> [@camille](#): > > ..Serino thought Martin was hiding. IMO, the simplest explanation is that Martin was hiding from Zimmerman somewhere near the T, and not that he went all the way home and then came back… I read it a bit differently. I’m hearing some suspicion in the leading questions from Serino. Remember that Z is insisting that he was not following Martin, as per the suggestion of the dispatcher. That he could not see Martin. He intended to substantiate that he wasn’t following him because Martin was not visible to him, therefore he \*couldn’t \*have been following him. He goes on to suggest that it was merely a coincidence that he went in the same direction. And he had gotten out only to try to find an address in order to be of more help to the police in finding him. Because he was in an unfamiliar neighborhood, we are given to believe. Yes. Quite. Anyway, I hear sarcasm in that. As in “Well, if you couldn’t see him, and therefore couldn’t follow him, then he must have been hiding!” Hiding where, would be the implied question, as it was clear to Serino and Zimmerman both there was little likelihood that he could be hiding. This ain’t the woods, or the jungle, its a gated community. Be easier to hide on a skating rink. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/382 "2013-07-25T01:30:37Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I read it a bit differently. I’m hearing some suspicion in the leading questions from Serino. Remember that Z is insisting that he was not following Martin, as per the suggestion of the dispatcher. That he could not see Martin. He intended to substantiate that he wasn’t following him because Martin was not visible to him, therefore he \*couldn’t \*have been following him. > > He goes on to suggest that it was merely a coincidence that he went in the same direction. And he had gotten out only to try to find an address in order to be of more help to the police in finding him. Because he was in an unfamiliar neighborhood, we are given to believe. Yes. Quite. > > Anyway, I hear sarcasm in that. As in “Well, if you couldn’t see him, and therefore couldn’t follow him, then he must have been hiding!” Hiding where, would be the implied question, as it was clear to Serino and Zimmerman both there was little likelihood that he could be hiding. This ain’t the woods, or the jungle, its a gated community. Be easier to hide on a skating rink. There is a tape of the interview. I haven’t heard it since the trial, but it didn’t come across to me as sarcasm as I recall. To be honest, Serino comes across as less Lennie Briscoe/Robert Goren and more Tutti and Muldoon, if you know what I mean. His “lies meant to trip up” Zimmerman were pretty obvious, and the interviews did nothing but help Zimmerman firm up his story. Notice who is doing all the talking. How do you “trip someone up” if you don’t let them get a word in edgewise? There is a reason Serino went back to night patrol. As far as Martin being able to hide: It was pretty dark, and there were some small white wooden partition fences between the units [(if you want to watch the reenactment video to see them, go to the 10:08 mark](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PX1sxARNq_c)); he could have slipped behind one of them to wait and see if Zimmerman would continue to follow (and we know he did, or at least “continue in the same direction”). ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/383 "2013-07-25T07:45:08Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > That’s not how DeeDee interpreted it: > > “I thought he was going to be OK because he was right by his daddy’s house, but his daddy was not home”. > > If he was not **right** by his daddy’s house, daddy being at home or not would be irrelevant. Her interpretation has absolutely no meaning of any kind, and I’m shocked that you would suggest otherwise. Except for the fact that it’s the only thread you have to justify your preferred scenario, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/384 "2013-07-25T09:02:22Z")
> [@camille](#): > > But now it’s even more boring, because you prompted me to recap it. Maybe you should read for context next time, before jumping to conclusions based on your own bias. You have too much emotion invested in this, sister. Telling me I’m jumping to conclusions because you have jumped to one (re: my bias) doesn’t do much for your credibility. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/385 "2013-07-25T11:20:31Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > I found [this article](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alafair-burke/george-zimmerman-jury-instructions_b_3596685.html) quite interesting. If focuses on the instructions that were given to the jurors before deliberations. In essence, Florida’s “stand your ground” law can’t be used to justify self-defense by someone who was the initial aggressor in a conflict, but the jurors were not informed of that. If that’s all true, then I think Zimmerman’s actions before the shooting are entirely relevant, to decide if he meets the definition of “initial aggressor”. That article _is_ interesting. _I’m willing to stipulate that GZ “should” have been found Not Guilty regardless_, but it’s not my place to make that determination. Nor is it the judge’s – it’s the jury’s job. Does not the judge have too much power with duties like tailoring jury instructions? The article even implies the possibility of extra-legal considerations: > [@](#): > > By the time Judge Nelson ruled on the initial aggressor instruction, the parties had squandered more than fifteen minutes arguing primarily about factual inferences that should have been for the jury to draw. The judge’s curtness indicates that she was ready to move on, even though the relevant legal issues had barely been touched. > > “Error.” Watch the video. Watch how West emphasizes the word “error.” Error is a word used to invoke fear in trial court judges that they will be reversed on appeal. > [@Debaser](#): > > … Many posters here have really downplayed the attack. People genuinely seem to want a society where someone breaking your nose, mounting you on the ground, and wailing on you is just fine in response to you walking up to them and asking them a question. Both pro-GZ and pro-TM posters insist that there are no shades of gray. If we empathize with a teenager who lost his cool when stalked by the wannabe, it means we _want_ him to beat up GZ. Great username/thought-process combo there, **Debaser**. 🆒 > [@Werekoala](#): > > I would be interested to know the opinion of the folks who are all up in arms about this trial regarding the OJ verdict. He was acquitted despite, literally, buckets of evidence that he did it, yet I don’t recall lots of moral outrage or candlelight vigils over that one. Quite the opposite. > > Wonder why there’s such a disconnect here… hmmm, what could it be… There were (almost entirely white) objections to the OJ verdict. I guess that, at least in **Werekoala** ’s opinion, black thought is racist, white thought is objective. Got it. > [@Chronos](#): > > OK, I’m still puzzled by how there’s any uncertainty that Zimmerman started the fight. The sequence of events, as I understand it: The exact times and places of the events are known, but I didn’t follow the trial closely. Is there an animation or annotated map showing plausible reconstruction(s) of GZ’s and TM’s movements? ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/386 "2013-07-25T15:15:41Z")
To much testosterone, to much paranoia, acceptance of violence, to many ideas about religion, to much freedom is given to being allowed to be a nut jobs - then add a shitload of guns in the mix – you end up with people killing each other. It’s called the god blessed country USA, welcome to the Wild Wild West, apparently it’s still stuck the 18th century. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/387 "2013-07-25T15:39:36Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > You have too much emotion invested in this, sister. Telling me I’m jumping to conclusions because you have jumped to one (re: my bias) doesn’t do much for your credibility. So you didn’t read it correctly, but how dare I (correctly) guess the reason why! LOL. Stay classy, bro. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/388 "2013-07-25T15:45:12Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Both pro-GZ and pro-TM posters insist that there are no shades of gray. If we empathize with a teenager who lost his cool when stalked by the wannabe, it means we _want_ him to beat up GZ. Great username/thought-process combo there, **Debaser**. 🆒 Sure, it’s not every single pro-Martin poster who thinks this. But many people literally do post that Zimmerman had a beating coming to him for daring to follow someone around. People have posted that they would react the same way and that violence was a natural, unavoidable outcome of being followed and asked questions. I’m not painting with a broad brush when I point this out. It really is what people have been saying. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/389 "2013-07-25T15:50:29Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I’ve met very few actual cynics in my time. Its a harsh judgment, and I render it cautiously. I’ve yet to meet one who didn’t think of himself as hard-headed and realistic. > > Might want to mull that over some time. Just a thought. Do you bother typing this post every time you feel it should be vomited out into a thread? Or do you have it ready to copy/paste at a moments notice whenever your cynicism detector goes off? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/390 "2013-07-25T18:09:47Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Quite true. What Martin did not have a right to do was to punch Zimmerman in the face, break his nose, blacken his eyes, knock him down, and jump on top of him and slam his head into the pavement. And we have evidence, other than Zimmerman’s word, that Martin did all these things. We also have objective evidence that GZ shot and killed TM. And yet you jump to the conclusion that GZ was excused for shooting and killing TM but TM had no business assaulting GZ based largely on GZ testimony. > [@](#): > > …Sure, you can make up whatever you like and claim victory when there isn’t evidence to disprove it. The irony burns a little bit > [@doorhinge](#): > > So what? > > Maybe, maybe, maybe, blah, blah, blah. Your sexual fantasies seem to be working overtime. You forgot to mention that GZ stole the Lindbergh baby and had grass stains from the grassy knoll. :smack: I was poking fun at the fact that your side claims to KNOW what happened when you don’t KNOW shit. > [@](#): > > GZ was by the “T” and TM was some 300 feet away by his daddy fiance house. TM was where exactly? He was by some house and the HOUSE was about a 1/20 of a mile away from where GZ was. We have no idea how far TM was from the house, just that he was subjectively close by. > [@Iggy](#): > > And GZ had no obligation to stay in his truck or run back to it. We have already established that GZ had been following TM. YOUR side is the one that is claiming that TM was starting some shit by cmoing back to GZ after he was already by his father’s house. YOUR side is the one imferring some level of culpability on TM because you think he should have just gone inside and hid under his covers and the fact that he didn’t means that he brought his death upon hiimself. > [@](#): > > And since the state could not introduce an attempted anal rape scenario without at least some evidence to back that up then that hypothetical has no legal bearing. Well, the state did a shitty job generally. I wasn’t literally proposing that this is what happened but I was highlighting that you don’t know what happened. You are inferring it largely from GZ’s testimony. > [@](#): > > Could have happened.\* But there is absolutely no evidence it went down that way. And other than GZ’s testimony, there is no evidence that things went down the way he said. > [@](#): > > Fundamentally this was the state’s major problem - an inability to provide evidence beyond a reasonable doubt in support of a scenario that made GZ legally liable. I agree, but the state’s failure to prove Zimmerman’s guilt beyond a reasonble doubt doesn’t mean that he is innocent or that things actually went down the way he claims. > [@doorhinge](#): > > Not that was testified to in court. It was GZ’s story that he had lost sight of TM before GZ exited the car. It was also GZ’s story that he didn’t see TM again until TM started beating him. Anyone have a transcript of the trial? > [@Terr](#): > > That’s not how DeeDee interpreted it: > > “I thought he was going to be OK because he was right by his daddy’s house, but his daddy was not home”. > > If he was not **right** by his daddy’s house, daddy being at home or not would be irrelevant. That’s the way YOU are interpreting that statement. > [@Debaser](#): > > Sure, it’s not every single pro-Martin poster who thinks this. But many people literally do post that Zimmerman had a beating coming to him for daring to follow someone around. People have posted that they would react the same way and that violence was a natural, unavoidable outcome of being followed and asked questions. I’m not painting with a broad brush when I point this out. It really is what people have been saying. I didn’t damn GZ until he continued to follow TM after he was advized not to. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/391 "2013-07-25T18:20:45Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Do you bother typing this post every time you feel it should be vomited out into a thread? Or do you have it ready to copy/paste at a moments notice whenever your cynicism detector goes off? Nobody says you have to read any of them, hoss. Ain’t gonna bother me none. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/392 "2013-07-25T21:52:08Z")
> [@Doughbag](#): > > To much testosterone, to much paranoia, acceptance of violence, to many ideas about religion, to much freedom is given to being allowed to be a nut jobs - then add a shitload of guns in the mix – you end up with people killing each other. > > It’s called the god blessed country USA, welcome to the Wild Wild West, apparently it’s still stuck the 18th century. Are Irish terrorists still blowing up buses in England and drilling holes in each other’s kneecaps? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/393 "2013-07-25T21:55:54Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Are Irish terrorists still blowing up buses in England and drilling holes in each other’s kneecaps? No to the first, and almost entirely no to the second. ---
**Author:** ![Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleeps_With_Butterflies)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/394 "2013-07-25T22:20:14Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Anyone have a transcript of the trial? There are hours and hours (and hours and hours) of the trial on youtube, if you’re interested. I believe it gives a better feel for the witnesses to hear their words and see their expressions rather than just reading, YMMV. I have mostly stayed out of these threads because, to be honest, all I knew about the trial was what I’d seen in the media. Watching the trial, hearing the witnesses and 911 tapes, and absorbing massive amounts of testimony it’s insane to me how different the picture is from what the media presented. Whatever your opinions are now I would encourage anyone to watch all of the information presented. I can honestly say it’ll be a long time before I trust news stations/reporters again. I still have a _lot_ of mixed feelings about what happened, but I truly believe there is no way the jury could have convicted him based on the evidence. I say this as someone who was ready to run him out of the country with a torch like villagers chasing Frankenstein after those first few months of the media blitz. Sad stuff all the way around, to be honest. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/395 "2013-07-25T22:22:33Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Her interpretation has absolutely no meaning of any kind, and I’m shocked that you would suggest otherwise. Except for the fact that it’s the only thread you have to justify your preferred scenario, of course. It was decided by someone other than youself that Jeantel’s testimony should be presented to the jury. Somebody certainly thought her interpretation of events was worth admitting. It was up to the jury to decide if some or all of it was credible. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/396 "2013-07-25T22:36:12Z")
Wait, somebody decided that? No shit? So it wasn’t some random event, but a direct human-type decision? Nothing gets past you, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/397 "2013-07-25T23:02:22Z")
> [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](#): > > I truly believe there is no way the jury could have convicted him based on the evidence. Sure they could. I showed exactly how, using the evidence, they could have easily convicted him of manslaughter (and should have). > [@Stoid](#): > > Evidence that we, **the fact finders** , used to arrive at our conclusion that it was _ **an unlawful killing** _,_not_ self-defense: > > 1. We all have found Zimmerman to be entirely lacking in credibility, and find that his inconsistencies and implausibilities are centered around the areas which make his actions legally unacceptable. Therefore, any detail of his claims which lacks clear corroboration we are free to reject as false, and we generally do. > > 2. Having found item one to be true, we consider his falsehoods to be evidence that he has knowledge that he is guilty of unlawful killing, and therefore evidence that he \*\*\*is \*\*\*guilty of unlawful killing. (consciousness of guilt). > > 3. We find that his statement regarding assholes getting away, along with his statement regarding having the police call to be sufficient to indicate that he intended to and did continue to look for Martin after he got off the phone. > > 4. We find that Jeantel’s testimony credible as to what the two said, and we find her statement regarding Martin saying “get off me” to be a true one. > > 5. From that we infer that Zimmerman did something to try to detain Martin, and that Martin violently resisted. > > 6. > 7. We have witnesses reporting both men on top at different times, we find that the struggle included both men on top at different times, with neither having a clear and consistent physical advantage over the other. > > 8. From the 911 phone call, we all find that the voice in the background is young, and profoundly terrified, and we found Martin’s mothers statement that it was her son believable. The voice is cut off abruptly at the shot, we all agree that these things together make it certain that the voice is Martin’s, and we infer that his terrorized screams were a result of seeing the gun well before the point the non-credible Zimmerman claims he produced it. > > 9. We find that as a result of Zimmerman’s pattern of lies, implausibilities, and inconsistencies, his claims regarding his reasons for climbing on martin’s back are false. Since we know he did climb on Martin’s back, because witnesses saw him, we believe (although it’s not necessary to our conviction, we’re just sharing our thought processes) that Zimmerman was well aware that he had shot the boy, knew he had doens so wrongfully, and was actually interested in making sure the boy expired before he would be questioned. Putting his weight on the boy’s mortally wounded body would have certainly helped to accomplish that. Putting a cherry on top of his murder. > > Since these are our findings of fact, our reasonable inferences from the evidence, we find that Zimmerman hunted Martin down and tried to detain him, thereby provoking him to a violent response, and that Zimmerman produced the gun well in advance of the point he stated, _ **making it impossible, in our fact-finding eyes, for there to have, at any point, been a sincere need to actually shoot Martin at all, making the self-defense claim false and the killing unlawful.** _ > [@Bricker](#): > > I agree the jury has a legally sufficient case for manslaughter, which you’ve laid out. See? Prosecutors sucked ass. > [@doorhinge](#): > > It was decided by someone other than youself that Jeantel’s testimony should be presented to the jury. Somebody certainly thought her interpretation of events was worth admitting. It was up to the jury to decide if some or all of it was credible. So? Her interpretation of exactly what Martin meant when he said he was by his father’s house has no weight, no meaning, no value, in terms of saying whether he was 2 feet or 300 feet. She had no way of knowing. Unless she said “Martin and I agreed long ago that when he says he’s “right by” someplace, it means he’s 4 steps away”, there’s no reason to think her interpretation is better than anyone else’s. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/398 "2013-07-25T23:12:41Z")
> [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](#): > > There are hours and hours (and hours and hours) of the trial on youtube, if you’re interested. I believe it gives a better feel for the witnesses to hear their words and see their expressions rather than just reading, YMMV. > > I have mostly stayed out of these threads because, to be honest, all I knew about the trial was what I’d seen in the media. Watching the trial, hearing the witnesses and 911 tapes, and absorbing massive amounts of testimony it’s insane to me how different the picture is from what the media presented. Whatever your opinions are now I would encourage anyone to watch all of the information presented. I can honestly say it’ll be a long time before I trust news stations/reporters again. > > I still have a _lot_ of mixed feelings about what happened, but I truly believe there is no way the jury could have convicted him based on the evidence. I say this as someone who was ready to run him out of the country with a torch like villagers chasing Frankenstein after those first few months of the media blitz. > > Sad stuff all the way around, to be honest. In my opinion, the media selected a narrative early on, and then had little choice but to stay with it, even as it unraveled in front of them. Remember Zimmermman’s taped call? > [@](#): > > This guy looks like he’s up to no good. He looks black. For a full week they ran that recording, on both the Today show and NBC Nightly News. How could anyone blame you for concluding the guy was a not-so-closeted racist? > [@](#): > > Zimmerman: “This guy looks like he’s up to no good. Or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around, looking about.” > > Dispatcher: “OK, and this guy — is he black, white or Hispanic?” > > Zimmerman: “He looks black.” That was the real quote. When the deceptive editing was exposed, NBC claimed they would conduct an an “internal investigation.” That investigation resulted in an pseudo-apology on April 3, 2012. NBC said that what had apparently happened was an “error,” made in the production process “that we deeply regret.” Of course, that was made via written statement, not on air, and certainly not aired for a week day and night on the Today show and NBC Nightly News. What did they say on-air, you might ask? > [@](#): > > And we should know George Zimmerman has sued NBC Universal, the parent company of this network, for defamation. The company has strongly denied his allegations. Nothing else. No context, no explanation for WHY Zimmerman had sued NBC Universal, nothing. Do you think that may have contributed, just a tad, to the certainty in te country that Zimmerman was a racist? ---
**Author:** ![Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleeps_With_Butterflies)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/399 "2013-07-25T23:16:34Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Sure they could. I showed exactly how, using the evidence, they could have easily convicted him of manslaughter (and should have). I’m sorry, I can’t agree. And please understand, I am not going to get into a patented back and forth and back and forth fontapalooza **Stoid** style postfest with you about it. Specifically with regards to your “Fact finders” post I cannot agree with most of your numbered points. You feel the way you do after (I assume) hearing all of the evidence presented and I feel the way I do. > [@Bricker](#): > > For a full week they ran that recording, on both the Today show and NBC Nightly News. > > How could anyone blame you for concluding the guy was a not-so-closeted racist? That was one of the things that got to me. There were others. I was reactionary and enraged and convinced of absolute guilt with malice. Like I said earlier though, I still am conflicted about the whole thing and it’s just awful all the way around. The most awful, of course, is the death of a young man. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/400 "2013-07-25T23:28:09Z")
So, how did he decide Martin was up to no good, or on drugs or something? Some special training that allows him to detect a buzz at maybe fifty yards? Some behavioral quirk that matched the profile of doped up scofflaws? Was it the Skittles? Did he even see the Skittles? OK, maybe if he saw the Skittles, his presumptions had some merit. Rather than being some utterly unjustified presumption that is typically based on race, as is common knowledge. Yeah, I guess if you can prove he actually saw the Skittles, I’d have to say his attitude as conveyed by the quote was entirely sensible and reflects a clear and unbiased mind. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028.md?page=21)