# The pitting of people who mistakenly conflate justice with legality (Martin/Zimmerman related) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 20, 2013, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028 "2013-07-20T13:04:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/401 "2013-07-25T23:35:09Z")
> [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](#): > > You feel the way you do after (I assume) hearing all of the evidence presented and I feel the way I do. Ha ha ha ha ha. I guess you missed the posts where she said she didn’t need to bother following the trial because she, in classic **Stoid** fashion, already knows better? There has been a great deal of argument and disagreement with her and several lawyers and other knowledgeable people (and also me) where she has repeatedly been shown her interpretation of the law is utterly wrong, the “evidence” she claims to present doesn’t exist, and the inferences she draws are legally invalid. Of course, she knows better that all this :smack: ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/402 "2013-07-25T23:43:58Z")
I can certainly see how you might feel that way, since you have conducted yourself entirely in a calm, civil and open-minded manner. A beacon to us all. But wait, maybe you can answer my question! Assuming that Z was innocent of racist bias, how did he come to think that Martin was a drugged up thug? You think it was the Skittles? ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/403 "2013-07-25T23:48:13Z")
> [@camille](#): > > So you didn’t read it correctly, but how dare I (correctly) guess the reason why! LOL. Stay classy, bro. That’s funny. You jump to a conclusion, then when called on it, double down on it. Very classy indeed. I forgot that when something is inserted parenthetically like (correctly), that automatically makes it gospel and beyond debate, therefore meaning you get to retain your status as arbiter of conclusion jumping the world over and in this thread in particular. Here’s a LOL, just for you. If you want to advance the cause of reading comprehension, try not to post emotional, incoherent half-thoughts that require us with lesser minds and biased dispositions to connect dots. So, just to ensure I’m following, Occam’s razor should be applied to the detective’s statement, meaning the most obvious conclusion requires us to ignore Jeantel’s testimony because, after all, “by the house” could mean he was by the mailbox, it could mean he was in the driveway, who knows where? Who could solve such a mystery? “By the house” could place him anywhere, including 300 feet away, back at the T, hiding in wait for Zimmerman. Is that it? It’s hard for us weak-minded to keep up with the Zen wisdom of your commentary. And if you respond, remember, stay classy, sis. And always, always, keep on LOL’ing. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/404 "2013-07-25T23:50:57Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > …The exact times and places of the events are known, but I didn’t follow the trial closely. Is there an animation or annotated map showing plausible reconstruction(s) of GZ’s and TM’s movements? You have this: [**George Zimmerman reenacts incident for Sanford Police**](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PX1sxARNq_c) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/405 "2013-07-25T23:53:23Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I can certainly see how you might feel that way, since you have conducted yourself entirely in a calm, civil and open-minded manner. A beacon to us all. > > But wait, maybe you can answer my question! Assuming that Z was innocent of racist bias, how did he come to think that Martin was a drugged up thug? You think it was the Skittles? He found it suspicious that Martin was walking slowly in the rain and looking at houses in an area that had had break-ins recently. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2013, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/406 "2013-07-26T00:02:35Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > He found it suspicious that Martin was walking slowly in the rain and looking at houses in an area that had had break-ins recently. Pure conjecture – and possible racial bias – on Z’s part. How in the world would Martin, who was totally new to the neighborhood, have any idea which houses had been “broken into lately”? All he saw was a dude chasing him, for no apparent reason, at twilight under the rain. That would get my attention – would it not yours, Rick? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2013, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/407 "2013-07-26T00:22:54Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > But wait, maybe you can answer my question! Assuming that Z was innocent of racist bias, how did he come to think that Martin was a drugged up thug? You think it was the Skittles? Cite that Zimmerman thought Martin was a thug? No, I don’t think it was the Skittles, I think it was the black guy who wasn’t a resident there walking slowly, in the rain, looking at houses, where there had been several burglaries by young black guys. Reasonable suspicion, _racial_ bias perhaps, but not _racist_. The two are not identical. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2013, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/408 "2013-07-26T00:26:01Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > He found it suspicious that Martin was walking slowly in the rain and looking at houses in an area that had had break-ins recently. Well, that’s a bit short, isn’t it? You’re not telling us whether you concur with his assessment, only that it was his. Which we know, already. So, based on this evidence, you find his presumption reasonable, that Martin was likely on drugs and up to no good? And Martin’s race had nothing whatever to do with it? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2013, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/409 "2013-07-26T00:26:53Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Pure conjecture – and possible racial bias – on Z’s part. How in the world would Martin, who was totally new to the neighborhood, have any idea which houses had been “broken into lately”? All he saw was a dude chasing him, for no apparent reason, at twilight under the rain. > > That would get my attention – would it not yours, Rick? Sure. But the question was not what Martin thought. It was: “Assuming that Z was innocent of racist bias, how did he come to think that Martin was a drugged up thug?” And the answer to that question is: He found it suspicious that Martin was walking slowly in the rain and looking at houses in an area that had had break-ins recently. I think it was absolutely understandable for Martin to be worried about someone following him. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2013, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/410 "2013-07-26T00:27:40Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > …_racial_ bias perhaps, but not _racist_. The two are not identical. I’m going to sit and stare at this for a while. No, it is too many for me, I fold. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2013, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/411 "2013-07-26T00:34:30Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I’m going to sit and stare at this for a while. No, it is too many for me, I fold. So you don’t think that, in a neighbourhood that’s had several burglaries by young black men, it’s reasonable to be more suspicious of young black men acting unusually than old Japanese women? Racism is prejudice. A reasonable suspicion is not prejudice, it’s a judgement based on evidence. Postjudice, if you will. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2013, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/412 "2013-07-26T00:34:34Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, that’s a bit short, isn’t it? You’re not telling us whether you concur with his assessment, only that it was his. Which we know, already. > > So, based on this evidence, you find his presumption reasonable, that Martin was likely on drugs and up to no good? And Martin’s race had nothing whatever to do with it? I most likely have reached the same conclusion. But I can’t be sure of that; I’m adding my own conjecture to the situation. Knowing what I now know, I suspect Martin was walking slowly because he was on the phone with Jeantel. And he was looking at houses in the same way that anyone who is walking looks at houses: what else is there to look at? But I don’t think Zimmerman’s conclusion is blatantly, obviously wrong. He didn’t know Martin was on the phone. And he saw someone acting suspiciously. If I learned that a police officer who saw the same scene pulled to the curb and asked Martin if he could speak with him for a moment, I wouldn’t be shocked. I think the drugs thing is extremely thin. And while I grant that Martin’s race may have had something to do with it, I’m reasonably confident that Zimmerman would have made the same call about a white teenager. Zimmerman liked making calls. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2013, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/413 "2013-07-26T00:36:56Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And he was looking at houses in the same way that anyone who is walking looks at houses: what else is there to look at? I think people look at houses differently if they are unfamiliar, and it’s entirely possible that Martin was looking more closely than a resident would at the surroundings he was to live in. I also think that it’s reasonable to consider such unusual behaviour suspicious in the circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2013, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/414 "2013-07-26T00:39:31Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Sure. But the question was not what Martin thought. It was: “Assuming that Z was innocent of racist bias, how did he come to think that Martin was a drugged up thug?” > > And the answer to that question is: He found it suspicious that Martin was walking slowly in the rain and looking at houses in an area that had had break-ins recently. And we are supposed to buy that strictly on his say so? While of course, obviating all the other “inconsistencies” in his narrative. Why is that? > [@](#): > > I think it was absolutely understandable for Martin to be worried about someone following him. We’re agreed. And I think he acted according to the “fight or flight” principle. Human nature, you know. Precipitated by the reckless vigilante acts of _someone else_. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2013, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/415 "2013-07-26T00:43:11Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > While of course, obviating all the other “inconsistencies” in his narrative. Why is that? Why? How about because the guy who interrogated him said the inconsistencies were too minor to matter? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2013, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/416 "2013-07-26T01:03:54Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Why? How about because the guy who interrogated him said the inconsistencies were too minor to matter? Was Martin there to tell his side of the story? You picked a side and ran with it no matter what. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2013, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/417 "2013-07-26T01:08:57Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Was Martin there to tell his side of the story? You picked a side and ran with it no matter what. No, I picked a side then, as the evidence came out, changed my mind. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2013, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/418 "2013-07-26T01:11:43Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Cite that Zimmerman thought Martin was a thug? > > No, I don’t think it was the Skittles, I think it was the black guy who wasn’t a resident there walking slowly, in the rain, looking at houses, where there had been several burglaries by young black guys. Reasonable suspicion, _racial_ bias perhaps, but not _racist_. The two are not identical. Not even you believe that. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2013, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/419 "2013-07-26T01:18:54Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > And we are supposed to buy that strictly on his say so? You don’t have to. You can also consider the fact that it is consistent with all the other evidence in this case. And if that’s not enough to satisfy you, then please remember the phrase “reasonable doubt.” You don’t have to believe the reason that Zimmerman gave for his suspicions. Unless you can refute it though, it amounts to another tick in the reasonable doubt column. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2013, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/420 "2013-07-26T01:19:54Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Not even you believe that. Why wouldn’t I? It makes sense, and it fits the facts. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028.md?page=22)