# The pitting of people who mistakenly conflate justice with legality (Martin/Zimmerman related) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 20, 2013, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028 "2013-07-20T13:04:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 30
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/581 "2013-07-29T13:53:32Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > No one is suggesting that or has suggested that. Then please answer my question. I will ask it a different way: When was the first point of time at which Zimmerman was legally obligated to either retreat (or attempt to retreat) or waive his right to use deadly force in self defense? Also, please answer my question from before: > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > The instruction stated that appellant could not defend herself with non-deadly force if she “initially provoked” the victim. By not limiting provocation to the use or threat of force, the court failed to make the jury aware that the word “provoked,” as used in the instruction, did not refer to mere words or conduct without force. Stated another way, the instruction given by the court eliminated the use of non-deadly force in self-defense if there was any provocation by the defendant — no matter how slight or subjective the provocation. By that standard, a mere insult could be deemed sufficient to prohibit defending oneself from an attacker. > > > > In this case, appellant’s self-defense was based on testimony that the victim verbally attacked her and then aggressively approached and swung at her. According to the defense, it was only then that appellant pushed the victim and used some force against her. Because the instruction did not limit provocation to some force or threat of force, the instruction could have misled the jury to believe that appellant’s pointedly asking the victim why she failed to acknowledge her greeting and/or appellant’s racial retorts and obscene gestures were sufficient provocation to preclude appellant from defending herself from an attack by the victim. > > It thus appears that the law in Florida is that the defendant loses his self-defense rights on “provocation” grounds only if he is involved in a “forcible felony” or provokes the target by “force or threat of force.” (Gibbs apparently had no occasion to resolve the separate question of whether purpose to trigger forcible reaction or mere knowledge of a high likelihood of such reaction — or even something less — is required for “provocation.”) And, as Prof. Burke points out, it seems to have been Gibbs that led the trial court to not give the “provocation” instruction. Prof. Burke, a former prosecutor, opines that the denial of the provocation instruction “may have been the moment when Zimmerman got acquitted.” Do you agree that this is an accurate statement of Florida law? i.e. that in Florida, “provocation” does not include mere words or conduct without force or the threat of force? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/582 "2013-07-29T13:53:42Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > No one is suggesting that or has suggested that. His duty under the law would be to do something other than nothing and then finally after doing nothing, go straight to killing Martin, which is apparently what he did. Wrong on two counts. Firstly, if there was no other means of escape, he had exhausted them by doing nothing, and was entitled to kill Martin. Secondly, he did not, in fact, do nothing. He screamed for about a minute for help, and only shot Martin when no help came. I’m basing my claim that it was Zimmerman screaming on preponderance of evidence, as all the evidence that it was Martin is fatally discredited. The “experts” who claimed that were barred from court, and the family’s identification was compromised by the manner in which it was conducted, leaving only Zimmerman’s claim, the claim of Tracy Martin that it was _not_ his son, and the claim of Zimmerman’s cousin\* that it _was_ Zimmerman. \*I think cousin, or some similar level of relation. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/583 "2013-07-29T15:25:56Z")
> [@](#): > > Serino: OK. And in the middle of all that yelling, nobody came out to help you. And I can’t, I can’t pinpoint where you were smothered. That’s the problem I’m having. And nobody’s saying they saw him smothering you. People are saying they saw you, saw him on top of you, but they didn’t see about the smothering part. So… > > Singleton: And when we’re listening to the screaming, doesn’t sound like there’s a hesitation in the screaming. It sounds like it’s continuous, and if someone’s being hurt (imitates scream being muffled) It’s gonna stop. But we don’t hear the, we don’t hear it stop… [https://www.txantimedia.com/?p=1079](https://www.txantimedia.com/?p=1079) How does a man being smothered continue screaming uninterrupted? And with all that blood flowing down his esophagus. Because that’s why there’s no blood on his hands, you will recall, its all going down his windpipe. While he screams. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/584 "2013-07-29T16:46:29Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > [https://www.txantimedia.com/?p=1079](https://www.txantimedia.com/?p=1079) > > How does a man being smothered continue screaming uninterrupted? That’s another argument which is annoying; fortunately I haven’t heard it much outside of the internet: 1. An exaggerated version of Zimmerman’s story is implausible; therefore 2. Zimmerman is a liar; therefore 3. Zimmerman is a murderer. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/585 "2013-07-29T16:52:09Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Wrong on two counts. Firstly, if there was no other means of escape, he had exhausted them by doing nothing, and was entitled to kill Martin. Secondly, he did not, in fact, do nothing. He screamed for about a minute for help, and only shot Martin when no help came. > > I’m basing my claim that it was Zimmerman screaming on preponderance of evidence, as all the evidence that it was Martin is fatally discredited. The “experts” who claimed that were barred from court, and the family’s identification was compromised by the manner in which it was conducted, leaving only Zimmerman’s claim, the claim of Tracy Martin that it was _not_ his son, and the claim of Zimmerman’s cousin\* that it _was_ Zimmerman. > > \*I think cousin, or some similar level of relation. Sure, on your jury. Not mine. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/586 "2013-07-29T16:54:25Z")
**Brazil:** Oh? So Z didn’t claim that Martin was attempting to smother him by pressing his hands over Z’s broken nose and mouth? His interrogators were just making shit up? I provided my cite and link. Where’s yours? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/587 "2013-07-29T17:03:21Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > **Brazil:** > > Oh? So Z didn’t claim that Martin was attempting to smother him by pressing his hands over Z’s broken nose and mouth? No, but what he didn’t claim was that he was being smothered the entire time. Here’s a snippet from your link: * * * Serino: OK, right there. He smothered you, correct? Zimmerman: Yes, sir. Serino: At what point did he smother you? Zimmerman: After… Serino: Was it right before you shot him? Zimmerman: Right…yes, sir. Serino: OK. Immediately behind the shot? Zimmerman: (sigh) I don’t remember. Serino: OK. (plays 911 call again) Serino: I need you to give me an approximate time of when he starts to smother you. Zimmerman: I don’t know when. It’s hard to… Serino: That’s you, yelling for help. Zimmerman: (unintelligible) Serino: Help me, help me. Serino: That’s when you shot him. (clears his throat) Can you recall (coughs) excuse me…at what point the suffocation happened? Prior to, prior to you shooting him, he was on you, correct? Zimmerman: Yes, sir. Serino: OK. And you were able to reach into your holster. Zimmerman: Yes, sir. Serino: OK. You shot him at point blank range. He was on top of you, right? Zimmerman: Yes, sir. Serino: OK. And in the middle of all that yelling, nobody came out to help you. And I can’t, I can’t pinpoint where you were smothered. That’s the problem I’m having. And nobody’s saying they saw him smothering you * * * A fair reading of Zimmerman’s statement is that Martin smothered him at one point; and that he does not remember when. That’s not inconsistent with the claim that Zimmerman also screamed for help. But you exaggerated Zimmerman’s statement to make it seem like Zimmerman was claiming both things happened at the same time. So your argument is basically as follows: 1. Zimmerman’s exaggerated story is implausible; therefore 2. Zimmerman is a liar; therefore 3. Zimmerman is a murderer. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/588 "2013-07-29T17:04:38Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Then please answer my question. I will ask it a different way: > > When was the first point of time at which Zimmerman was legally obligated to either retreat (or attempt to retreat) or waive his right to use deadly force in self defense? Any point before or at the point he chose the gun and shooting. That was, by his own account, the first thing he actively did in response to what was evidently at least a couple of minutes of altercation. He went from unresponsive lump of human punching bag to killer with no stops in between. Anywhere in there or at the kill point he could have made a different choice than kill. Capable of killing? Capable of doing any number of other things, or trying to. He skipped them all. Evidently didn’t even consider alternatives. > [@](#): > > Also, please answer my question from before: > > Do you agree that this is an accurate statement of Florida law? i.e. that in Florida, “provocation” does not include mere words or conduct without force or the threat of force? Why wouldn’t I? We’ve been discussing the requirements of Gibbs since last year. I dont’ know what you are driving at with me, since I’ve always maintained that Martin was acting from fear that what he saw as his assailant (and who was in fact exactly that) could have any number of nefarious deeds in mind, from hate crime to rape, how was he to know? He just knew he was scared and chose fight over flight. There’s no suggestion from me or my jury that Martin was provoked by hurt feelings or annoyance or insult. Only fear of harm from the crazy-ass cracker. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/589 "2013-07-29T17:09:34Z")
Brazil: he didn’t to claim to be smothered the entire time. Being smothered any time would have sounded different than the screamer did. Those screams were full-throttle, uninterrupted by anything but drawing breeaths. No bumps, no muffles, no gurgles. Pure, full-throated shrieks of unmitigated terror. Which my jury found to be Martin without any experts or other people claiming they recognized it. Mom was credible, but not decisive in our finding. (for pal Steophhan) ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/590 "2013-07-29T17:12:03Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Any point before or at the point he chose the gun and shooting. So Zimmerman had a duty to retreat even before any words or blows were exchanged between him and Martin? > [@](#): > > Why wouldn’t I? Because it seems to contradict what you have been saying. > [@](#): > > There’s no suggestion from me or my jury that Martin was provoked by hurt feelings or annoyance or insult. Only fear of harm from the crazy-ass cracker. Ok, so just so we are clear, you believe that legally following another person constitutes a “threat of force” (and is therefore potentially “provocation”) if the person being followed becomes frightened? ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/591 "2013-07-29T17:17:21Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > So your argument is basically as follows: > > 1. Zimmerman’s exaggerated story is implausible; therefore > > 2. Zimmerman is a liar; therefore > > 3. Zimmerman is a murderer. So my argument is exactly as follows (can’t speak for Boris): 1. Zimmerman’s stories are all implausible, especially his claims regarding the last 30 seconds before the shot, in every version. 2. Zimmerman’s lies, inconsistencies and implausibilities are all meaningfully centered around the issues that could and do tend most to undermine his self-defense claim and point towards criminal responsibility. Under the rules of evidence, we the jury may view this lack of credibility around these issues as evidence of guilt itself. 3. Under the rules of evidence the very fact of Zimmerman being such a liar may be taken as consciousness of guilt and therefore evidence of guilt. Combined with other evidence, not exclusively without any other evidence. But it can definitely be counted in the guilty equation. 4. Therefore, Zimmerman’s prevarication in every way is evidence pointing to Zimmerman’s guilt for the unlawful death of Martin. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/592 "2013-07-29T17:18:07Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Brazil: he didn’t to claim to be smothered the entire time. Being smothered any time would have sounded different than the screamer did. Those screams were full-throttle, uninterrupted by anything but drawing breeaths. No bumps, no muffles, no gurgles. Pure, full-throated shrieks of unmitigated terror. So Zimmerman was screaming from the time the first blow was thrown until he opened fire? ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/593 "2013-07-29T17:25:36Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > So Zimmerman had a duty to retreat even before any words or blows were exchanged between him and Martin? No. What would he be retreating from? Read it again. Think about it again. It wasn’t Martin punch, Zimmerman shoot. [COLOR=“black”][COLOR=“black”][COLOR=“black”]It was Martin punch, then who knows depends on what you believe and what makes sense, but time passed and thigns were happening. According to Zimmerman he was being beaten to death and he did nothing to protect himself, argue, fight back, escape or any other thing during this blurry time, [/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR]then Zimmerman shoot. > [@](#): > > Ok, so just so we are clear, you believe that legally following another person constitutes a “threat of force” (and is therefore potentially “provocation”) if the person being followed becomes frightened? No, please read my posts in their entirety and stop leaving things out for me to re-type in a new way. My hand is killing me. I’ve described it many times. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/594 "2013-07-29T17:26:02Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > So my argument is exactly as follows I understand – your argument is annoying mainly because (1) the most important aspect of Zimmerman’s story – that he was being beaten up at the time he opened fire – is corroborated by physical evidence; (2) you are unable to offer a detailed scenario which is consistent with the evidence and with Zimmerman’s guilt. In short, the case did not hinge on Zimmerman’s credibility and in fact he did not testify at all at trial. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/595 "2013-07-29T17:26:53Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > So Zimmerman was screaming from the time the first blow was thrown until he opened fire? No, Martin was screaming from the time Zimmerman pulled out his gun until the time Zimmerman opened fire. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/596 "2013-07-29T17:33:10Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > No. What would he be retreating from? Read it again. I read it a couple times. You said that Zimmerman’s duty to retreat started at “Any point before or at the point he chose the gun and shooting” That would include the point where he left his car and the point where he ate breakfast that morning. According to what you wrote, Zimmerman’s duty to retreat started on the day he was born. Let’s try again: When was the first point of time at which Zimmerman was legally obligated to either retreat (or attempt to retreat) or waive his right to use deadly force in self defense? > [@](#): > > No, please read my posts in their entirety and stop leaving things out for me to re-type in a new way. My hand is killing me. I’ve described it many times. I read the posts you made in response to mine. I’m certainly not going to wade through all of your postings in all of the Zimmerman threads to find an answer. As far as I can tell, you contend that Zimmerman’s (alleged) following of Martin constituted “provocation” (Agreed?) You also agree that under Florida law, “provocation” at a minimum requires force or the threat of force and in this context you stated that Martin was afraid of Zimmerman. (Agreed?) So the most charitable reading of your position that I can think of is that you believe, under Florida law, that legally following another person who is frightened as a result constitutes “provocation.” What else could your position be? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/597 "2013-07-29T17:34:34Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > No, Martin was screaming from the time Zimmerman pulled out his gun until the time Zimmerman opened fire. Lol, let me re-phrase that: So you believe that Zimmerman claims to have been screaming from the moment he was first struck by Martin until the moment he opened fire? ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/598 "2013-07-29T17:36:35Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I understand – your argument is annoying mainly because (1) the most important aspect of Zimmerman’s story – that he was being beaten up at the time he opened fire – is corroborated by physical evidence; (2) you are unable to offer a detailed scenario which is consistent with the evidence and with Zimmerman’s guilt. > > In short, the case did not hinge on Zimmerman’s credibility and in fact he did not testify at all at trial. That is your opinion. Others have found my scenario consistent with the evidence. Both here after reading it, here independently, and out in the world at large independently. Because the physical evidence _ **only** _ corroborates the fact that an altercation took place, that’s all. Which itself doesn’t mean a damn thing. People get knocked around WAY worse than that playing backyard football. It does not, in my opinion and the opinion of many others, corroborate a ferocious beat down so terrifying in its violence that Zimmerman reasonably feared for his life and had no choice but to shoot Martin to save himself. Particularly when combined with other evidence, such as Zimmerman’s disinterest in seeking medical assistance after the terrifying life-threatening beat down. The evidence is all accounted for in my scenario, you just see it differently, as you are entitled to. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/599 "2013-07-29T17:38:50Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Lol, let me re-phrase that: > > So you believe that Zimmerman claims to have been screaming from the moment he was first struck by Martin until the moment he opened fire? No, and I don’t know how you arrived at that conclusion. He has claimed that the voice is his, I don’t recall him naming a point in time when the screaming began, only that the voice we hear is his and that he was being smothered seconds before the shot, which is the time period we hear. When it started I have no idea and I don’t believe there’s been any evidence specifically about that. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/600 "2013-07-29T17:44:55Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > That is your opinion. No, it’s reality. In the other thread, I asked you for your best guess at a reasonably detailed scenario and you ignored my question. > [@Stoid](#): > > and that he was being smothered seconds before the shot, That’s yet another exaggeration. He stated that he did not recall when the smothering took place. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028.md?page=29) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028.md?page=31)