# The pitting of people who mistakenly conflate justice with legality (Martin/Zimmerman related) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 20, 2013, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028 "2013-07-20T13:04:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 36
**Author:** ![AlienVessels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba8739/32.png) [@AlienVessels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlienVessels)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/701 "2013-09-01T20:13:53Z")
> [@Nothar](#): > > From the beginning, I have said that the folks who thought Zimmerman was guilty would never change their minds regardless of the evidence. They all seem to be sure he was a racist despite zero evidence for it The explosions you’re hearing are the irony meters. “Zero evidence.” ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/702 "2013-09-01T21:34:02Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Oh, I see. So Z was just strolling along, minding his own beeswax, and then Martin, who \*allegedly \*went to the 7-11 for tea and Skittles, spotted him and thought to himself “I’m gonna bust that cracker’s nose! Maybe kill him, haven’t make up my mind yet…” We’ll never know why Martin did what he did, but it did involve busting his nose, yes. And you’re right, some have alleged that Martin went to the shop for tea, but he didn’t. > [@](#): > > If I had wanted to say so, I would have, I don’t have any problem expressing myself. So if you would be so kind as to restrain your genius for telepathic psychoanalysis, that would be good. You do, in fact, very rarely express what you think in a clear and concise manner, preferring elliptical statements, attempts to discredit others points without offering good reason, just rhetoric, and attempts at humour. Attempts that are, I will grant, often successful, but that don’t usually make your point all that well. So I do, in fact, have to try to cut through all that to discern your meaning. I take it from you saying a few posts ago that Zimmerman is morally culpable simply because he owned a gun, that you don’t accept that one should own a gun for self defence. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/703 "2013-09-01T21:36:16Z")
> [@AlienVessels](#): > > The explosions you’re hearing are the irony meters. > > “Zero evidence.” Yes, that’s correct. There is, literally, zero evidence that Zimmerman was a racist. There is, however, plenty of evidence that he was _not_ racist, and plenty of evidence that Martin _was_ racist. I get that it hurts your liberal sensitivities when the black guy is, in fact, shown to be the bad guy, but in this particular case that’s what’s happened. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/704 "2013-09-01T23:29:13Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You, however, have no evidence that my position is wrong. There’s no evidence that Zimmerman continued to follow Martin, no evidence that he started the physical confrontation, and no evidence that he intended _any_ form of confrontation. Of course there is and of course you have always and will always deny it. We have hundreds of posts demonstrating exactly how that works. Zzzzzzzzzzzzz… ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/705 "2013-09-01T23:43:10Z")
> [@Nothar](#): > > . > > From the beginning, I have said that the folks who thought Zimmerman was guilty would never change their minds regardless of the evidence. They all seem to be sure he was a racist despite zero evidence for it, Well then, that demonstrates your own bias very clearly: I have believed Zimmerman to be guilty since I first learned the details of what happened, and I have _also_ rejected the idea that he is a racist or that he acted from racist motives. I believe he is guilty _exclusively because_ of the evidence. The evidence you have somehow managed to delete from your knowledge base. Happy to throw a wrench in your mindset… > [@Steophan](#): > > Yes, that’s correct. There is, literally, zero evidence that Zimmerman was a racist. Agreed. > [@](#): > > I get that it hurts your liberal sensitivities when the black guy is, in fact, shown to be the bad guy, but in this particular case that’s what’s happened. Hmmm…scary? Sad? Shocking? Pathetic? That you could distort reality to this degree? I’m going with a little bit of everything… ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/706 "2013-09-02T00:29:28Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > …that Zimmerman is morally culpable simply because he owned a gun, that you don’t accept that one should own a gun for self defence. Right there, exactly what I’m talking about, bare faced dishonesty. I have some issues with Z _carrying_ a gun, not with owning a gun. But my actual words aren’t good enough for you, you twist my words like a drunken clown twisting up a balloon animal, and now its I’m against self-defence. Its like I say I’m against reckless driving, you accuse me of being against cars. You write in complete sentences, for the most part, and you don’t know that stinks? Whatsamatta you? ---
**Author:** ![babygoat666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/2acd7d/32.png) [@babygoat666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/babygoat666)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/707 "2013-09-02T03:08:58Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Yes, that’s correct. There is, literally, zero evidence that Zimmerman was a racist. > > There is, however, plenty of evidence that he was _not_ racist, and plenty of evidence that Martin _was_ racist. > > I get that it hurts your liberal sensitivities when the black guy is, in fact, shown to be the bad guy, but in this particular case that’s what’s happened. Show “the black guy” to be the bad guy. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/708 "2013-09-02T03:12:11Z")
> [@babygoat666](#): > > Show “the black guy” to be the bad guy. Martin was definitively shown to be a racist by DeeDee’s testimony. Whether that makes him a “bad guy” is an opinion. ---
**Author:** ![babygoat666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/2acd7d/32.png) [@babygoat666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/babygoat666)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/709 "2013-09-02T03:25:53Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Martin was definitively shown to be a racist by DeeDee’s testimony. Whether that makes him a “bad guy” is an opinion. [Zimmerman is undeniably racist.](http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/03/22/george-zimmerman-s-history-of-911-calls-a-complete-log.htm) So who gets to legally kill him? - 1. April 22, 2011 – 7:09 p.m. Type: TEL Subject: Suspicious activity Report: Juvenile black male “apprx 7–9” years old, four feet tall “skinny build short blk hair” last seen wearing a blue t-shirt and blue shorts\* ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/710 "2013-09-02T03:32:14Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Martin was definitively shown to be a racist by DeeDee’s testimony. Whether that makes him a “bad guy” is an opinion. What was definitive? A teenager using the terms cracka and nigga in a casual phone conversation with another teenager? Zimmerman used the term nigga in posts on his my space page well before the incident occurred. Is that definitive as well? You know how I feel about Zimmerman, but I wouldn’t consider the usage in those contexts as definitive of racism for either one of them. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/711 "2013-09-02T03:39:42Z")
> [@babygoat666](#): > > [Zimmerman is undeniably racist.](http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/03/22/george-zimmerman-s-history-of-911-calls-a-complete-log.htm) So who gets to legally kill him? > > - > > 1. April 22, 2011 – 7:09 p.m. > Type: TEL > Subject: Suspicious activity > Report: Juvenile black male “apprx 7–9” years old, four feet tall “skinny build short blk hair” last seen wearing a blue t-shirt and blue shorts\* Your link is broken, and your premise is untenable. You may as well have chosen the username “sacrificialgoat” if that is the best you can do. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/712 "2013-09-02T03:50:41Z")
> [@camille](#): > > Zimmerman used the term nigga in posts on his my space page well before the incident occurred. Swing and a miss. Did not. [Zimmerman’s MySpace Comments - The Mind-Body Politic](http://mindbodypolitic.com/2013/07/16/zimmermans-myspace-comments/) - this comes from web site that is not sympathetic to Zimmerman. ---
**Author:** ![AlienVessels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba8739/32.png) [@AlienVessels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlienVessels)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/713 "2013-09-02T03:59:55Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Yes, that’s correct. There is, literally, zero evidence that Zimmerman was a racist. This is false. > [@](#): > > There is, however, plenty of evidence that he was _not_ racist, and plenty of evidence that Martin _was_ racist. The former is irrational and the latter is questionable. > [@](#): > > I get that it hurts your liberal sensitivities when the black guy is, in fact, shown to be the bad guy, but in this particular case that’s what’s happened. Smoking gun. Dead kid. Your math sucks. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/714 "2013-09-02T04:07:31Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Swing and a miss. Did not. [Zimmerman’s MySpace Comments - The Mind-Body Politic](http://mindbodypolitic.com/2013/07/16/zimmermans-myspace-comments/) - this comes from web site that is not sympathetic to Zimmerman. Apologies, it has been a while since I first saw it. Here is what I was remembering - [his username](http://dailycaller.com/2012/04/11/zimmermans-myspace-nickname-included-datniggy-family-insists-on-innocent-explanation/#ixzz2dhkDADBU): > [@](#): > > George Zimmerman, the Hispanic Floridian who killed black teenager Trayvon Martin on Feb. 26, had a MySpace account whose username was “datniggytb,” The Daily Caller has learned. And then there were the statements about Mexicans and referring to his ex as a “ho”, which your own site mentions. My opinion and question to you still stands. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/715 "2013-09-02T04:13:52Z")
> [@camille](#): > > Apologies, it has been a while since I first saw it. Here is what I was remembering - [his username](http://dailycaller.com/2012/04/11/zimmermans-myspace-nickname-included-datniggy-family-insists-on-innocent-explanation/#ixzz2dhkDADBU): As I showed you in my cite, his username was “onlytobekingagain”. > [@](#): > > My opinion and question to you still stands. Yes, Martin’s referring to Zimmerman as (quoting DeeDee) “CREEPY. ASS. CRACKER.” is racist. Was that your question? ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/716 "2013-09-02T04:31:50Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > As I showed you in my cite, his username was “onlytobekingagain”. He apparently had more than one page, because the family admitted the “datniggytb” one was his as well. Check it out. > [@](#): > > Yes, Martin’s referring to Zimmerman as (quoting DeeDee) “CREEPY. ASS. CRACKER.” is racist. Was that your question? Not quite. It’s still up there, but try these as well: 1. Does “definitively racist” apply to everyone who uses those terms in casual conversation? 2. What is the point of including Creepy and Ass? Do you consider them to be racist terms as well? Are you saying that cracker is only racist if it is preceded by those words? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/717 "2013-09-02T04:35:25Z")
> [@camille](#): > > He apparently had more than one page, because the family admitted the “datniggytb” one was his as well. Check it out. I did. Anonymous sources. Cannot find the page in way back machine. Does not compute. > [@](#): > > 1. Does “definitively racist” apply to everyone who uses those terms in casual conversation? A black guy calling a white guy “cracker” - not because he knows him and is friends with him and is just joshing - a stranger? Yes. Same as a white guy calling a black man “nigga” under same circumstances. Racist. > [@](#): > > 1. What is the point of including Creepy and Ass? Just a full quote from DeeDee, for completeness sake. With the periods. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/718 "2013-09-02T04:59:17Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I did. Anonymous sources. Cannot find the page in way back machine. Does not compute. So it’s your assertion that it was faked, screen grab and all, and the fake was never once challenged or debunked throughout this whole circus? Not even a peep from the conservative fun-house clowns about it being a phony charge to set up their boy George? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/719 "2013-09-02T05:04:18Z")
> [@camille](#): > > So it’s your assertion that it was faked, screen grab and all, and the fake was never once challenged or debunked throughout this whole circus? Not even a peep from the conservative fun-house clowns about it being a phony charge to set up their boy George? :dubious: Maybe. Maybe not. It is kinda stupid to have two MySpace pages but if he did - fine. If anything, he’s calling himself the “niggy” name. As I said: A black guy calling a white guy “cracker” - not because he knows him and is friends with him and is just joshing - a stranger? Yes. Racist. Same as a white guy calling a black man “nigga” under same circumstances. Racist. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/720 "2013-09-02T05:11:22Z")
> [@babygoat666](#): > > [Zimmerman is undeniably racist.](http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/03/22/george-zimmerman-s-history-of-911-calls-a-complete-log.htm) So who gets to legally kill him? I suppose YOU have the option of doing hard time for murdering an innocent man. Since you have now declared your intentions on the internet, that makes the crime “premeditated”. Depending on which State you murder GZ, you could be looking at the death penalty. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028.md?page=35) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028.md?page=37)