# The pitting of people who mistakenly conflate justice with legality (Martin/Zimmerman related) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 20, 2013, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028 "2013-07-20T13:04:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 37
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/721 "2013-09-02T05:23:33Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Oh, I see. So Z was just strolling along, minding his own beeswax, and then Martin, who \*allegedly \*went to the 7-11 for _tea_ and Skittles, spotted him and thought to himself “I’m gonna bust that cracker’s nose! Maybe kill him, haven’t make up my mind yet…” > If I had wanted to say so, I would have, I don’t have any problem expressing myself. So if you would be so kind as to restrain your genius for telepathic psychoanalysis, that would be good. Tea? Who went to the 7-11 for TEA? Since you say you don’t have any problem expressing yourself and it’s a fact that TM bought watermelon drink that day, maybe you’re talking about a different incident? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/722 "2013-09-02T05:29:03Z")
> [@camille](#): > > So it’s your assertion that it was faked, screen grab and all, and the fake was never once challenged or debunked throughout this whole circus? Not even a peep from the conservative fun-house clowns about it being a phony charge to set up their boy George? :dubious: Was the fake ever offered into evidence? ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/723 "2013-09-02T05:42:06Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Was the fake ever offered into evidence? I have no idea, but I had more success than **Terr** finding it on the wayback machine: > **[Si vis pacem, Para bellum. on Myspace](http://web.archive.org/web/20120408054324/http://www.myspace.com/datniggytb)** ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/724 "2013-09-02T05:47:17Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > You need not be utterly positive to hold a valid opinion. Did it never occur to you that the wind noise lapse might be simply a matter of the wind not blowing? If it didn’t, why not? And if it did, why wouldn’t you honestly offer that possibility? An honest argument admits its own weaknesses, that is its defining characteristic. A dishonest argument seeks to promote the possible into the likely, and then to the certain. Similarly, did it never occur to you that there are a thousand possible reasons why one’s breathing pattern might change, yet you keep insisting that there must be only one. And then insisting that we accept that one as proof positive! > > And yes, Z’s choice to arm himself speaks to character and mind set, and not in a good way. Good Lord, man, if he can’t feel somewhat secure in a gated community, of all places, what does that say about him? LOL. It says that GZ is another Florida resident who has passed all of the hurdles set by the State of Florida and the federal government to own and carry a firearm. Even when he’s driving to the store. Whether you like it or not. The voters in Florida elected representatives who passed the laws that allows some Florida residents to carry firearms. And I’m pretty sure that those Florida residents don’t care what you think of their character or their mind set. TM chose the wrong victim and that is the last wrong choice he’ll ever make. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/725 "2013-09-02T05:54:54Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Maybe. Maybe not. It is kinda stupid to have two MySpace pages but if he did - fine. If anything, he’s calling himself the “niggy” name. As I said: > > A black guy calling a white guy “cracker” - not because he knows him and is friends with him and is just joshing - a stranger? Yes. Racist. Same as a white guy calling a black man “nigga” under same circumstances. Racist. So if they are used about someone you both don’t know and like it is definitively racist? That’s a pretty wide net, considering how often they are thrown around today, in casual convos and on social media. Something to consider the next time you accuse liberals of exaggerating racism. 😉 I’m not even going to get into the false equivalence between the two terms, the shades of meaning in different contexts, and the special circumstance of Martin using it to describe someone following him for unknown reasons, and the contextual meaning of cracker in that circumstance. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/726 "2013-09-02T05:57:43Z")
> [@camille](#): > > So if they are used about someone you both don’t know and like it is definitively racist? Yes. > [@](#): > > I’m not even going to get into the false equivalence between the two terms, the shades of meaning in different contexts, and the special circumstance of Martin using it to describe someone following him for unknown reasons, and the contextual meaning of cracker in that circumstance. You don’t have to. I know you would work hard to find a way to excuse Martin’s racism. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/727 "2013-09-02T06:07:34Z")
**Terr** , how do you cast that wide net on one hand, and claim exaggerated racism claims on the other? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/728 "2013-09-02T06:11:21Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > We know GZ went out with a gun and grudge and ended up killing a boy. None of your prattling about “INVENTION” changes the fact that we now have a clue of a possible reason why GZ started that night in a foul mood. > > Have you alternate-reality denizens ever explained why you think TM attacked GZ? Was it just “Here comes an innocent cracker minding his own busy. I’m having me some fun …”? > > BTW, GZ’s acquittal does not prove he wasn’t morally culpable. Jurors said as much themselves. Those who pretend not to comprehend that much are either lying or extremely stupid. LOL. No, you don’t know that GZ went out with a “grudge”. Neither do you know that GZ was in a “foul mood”. Those are your “inventions”. Why did TM attack GZ? You’ll have to ask Rachel Jeantel. Jeantel says TM was by his daddy house which was over 300 feet from the “T”. TM would have had to return to the “T” to confront GZ. Unfortunately for TM, TM chose an armed victim. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/729 "2013-09-02T06:13:15Z")
> [@camille](#): > > **Terr** , how do you cast that wide net on one hand, and claim exaggerated racism claims on the other? It’s not that wide. I have not once called anyone a “nigga” (or a “cracka”). YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/730 "2013-09-02T06:53:12Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > It’s not that wide. I have not once called anyone a “nigga” (or a “cracka”). YMMV. Good. Now we won’t have to work hard to excuse you from accusations of racism. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/731 "2013-09-02T07:02:20Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > TM chose the wrong victim and that is the last wrong choice he’ll ever make. Sick, sick, sick. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/732 "2013-09-02T07:21:48Z")
> [@camille](#): > > **Terr** , how do you cast that wide net on one hand, and claim exaggerated racism claims on the other? Where has Terr claimed exaggerated racism? Is there perhaps some context to his claims that would erase the seeming contradiction? I’d be interested in seeing the source. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/733 "2013-09-02T08:21:48Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Where has Terr claimed exaggerated racism? Is there perhaps some context to his claims that would erase the seeming contradiction? I’d be interested in seeing the source. I was thinking of the theme of the [Oberlin College hoax thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=700274&highlight=racists), but I believe there have been other threads where it has come up. It’s more of a general meme: Conservatives think liberals exaggerate how much racism is still prevalent in society. If I am exaggerating his views about liberal exaggeration, he is welcome to come back and correct me. He didn’t take issue with it when I first mentioned it, and he didn’t care to explain it, either. I’m not sure how strongly he believes half the things he says in some of these threads. He likes arguing with liberals, like so many other conservatives here. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/734 "2013-09-02T09:09:13Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Of course there is and of course you have always and will always deny it. We have hundreds of posts demonstrating exactly how that works. Zzzzzzzzzzzzz… So present that evidence. It’s not been done here yet, and it was not done at the trial. Show with evidence, not speculation, that Zimmerman continued following Martin after he claimed to have stopped, that Zimmerman was the first to use or threaten violence, and that Martin did not, in fact, go home then return to Zimmerman. Of course, you can’t. No-one has been able to, including the prosecution lawyers. Really, everyone claiming that this evidence exists should probably show it, and perhaps explain why they didn’t make the prosecution aware of it before the trial. > [@elucidator](#): > > Right there, exactly what I’m talking about, bare faced dishonesty. I have some issues with Z _carrying_ a gun, not with owning a gun. But my actual words aren’t good enough for you, you twist my words like a drunken clown twisting up a balloon animal, and now its I’m against self-defence. > > Its like I say I’m against reckless driving, you accuse me of being against cars. Carrying a gun and using it in self defence is the opposite of reckless, it is one of the few legitimate uses of it, and probably the only legitimate use by a civilian in a residential area. Your comparison is ridiculous, and you have proved my point by saying you have a problem with him carrying it. Why don’t you want him to be able to defend himself? > [@](#): > > You write in complete sentences, for the most part, and you don’t know that stinks? Whatsamatta you? Nothing, I’m fine. Again, you are simply claiming I’m wrong without actually correcting me. It’s your schtick, I get that, and I’m sure the less intelligent readers might fall for it (hi **Stoid** ), but until you can explain to me how Zimmerman was supposed to defend himself with the gun he owned but didn’t carry - the scenario you support - I’ll continue to interpret that as believing he should not have defended himself with it, under any circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/735 "2013-09-02T16:05:20Z")
That’s not what you said, buckaroo. You took what I actually said and twisted it into something different. Making shit up. If you have to lie to win, you shouldn’t win. ---
**Author:** ![Acewiza](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f475e1/32.png) [@Acewiza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acewiza)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/736 "2013-09-02T16:56:49Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > If you have to lie to win, you shouldn’t win. Win: Steophan. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/737 "2013-09-02T17:48:46Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > That’s not what you said, buckaroo. You took what I actually said and twisted it into something different. Making shit up. If you have to lie to win, you shouldn’t win. And, again, you fail to actually say what I was wrong about, just making an unsupported claim. Your refusal to clarify your position or argue in good faith means that you can’t win, either. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/738 "2013-09-02T18:24:59Z")
I said you were twisting my words to fit your agenda. There’s nothing to “clarify”, the facts are right there in print. I said “tomato”, you said "Aha! You are saying ‘elephant!’ ". No. I wasn’t. Anybody who can read can see that. Or refuse to see it, as the case may be. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/739 "2013-09-02T22:23:49Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > That’s not what you said, buckaroo. You took what I actually said and twisted it into something different. Making shit up. If you have to lie to win, you shouldn’t win. That’s not how you felt back when we had this exchange. Your response to that illustration of your lie was, in total: > [@Here's your "all white jury", race hustlers](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-your-all-white-jury-race-hustlers/664621/196): > > I’ve been savagely mauled by a chihuahua! I pointed out that you were dodging giving explanations about your lie, and here’s how the conversation unfolded: > [@Here's your "all white jury", race hustlers](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-your-all-white-jury-race-hustlers/664621/197): > > That’s not an answer. It’s your usual trick of spewing bullshit prose that means nothing. > > Do you have an actual, plain, clear, answer? > [@Here's your "all white jury", race hustlers](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heres-your-all-white-jury-race-hustlers/664621/198): > > Sure! You don’t deserve one. Plain enough for your sorry ass? Where was this vaunted fealty to truth back then? ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/740 "2013-09-02T23:06:14Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > So present that evidence. It’s not been done here yet, and it was not done at the trial. Why should I do that _ **again** _ when you ignored or denied it the first couple dozen times it was shown to you? Because you are going to react differently now? Can’t imagine why, nothing else has changed. > [@](#): > > Show with evidence, _ **not speculation,** _ that Zimmerman continued following Martin after he claimed to have stopped, Since you don’t know the difference, again, what would be the point? You are claiming that the wind die down is evidence that Zimmerman stopped. I agree with you. But your \*\*(HUGE) _error is in thinking and claiming that this is evidence that he **remained** stopped, that he **never resumed** _ pursuing Martin! And that would be…wait for it… _ **speculation!** _ So perhaps you will abandon that and turn to where the fight took place. What evidence do you have about where it began? We have irrefutable proof about where it ended, but what do you have about where it began? Assuming your evidence for where it began is reasonable, what evidence do you have for what occurred in between the end of the Zimmerman call and the beginning of the fight, in terms of Zimmerman’s movements, evidence that would prove or allow for a reasonable inference that his movements in that time had zero to do with pursuing Martin? I’m pretty sure you got nuthin’, kiddo, but I’m very open to hearing about it. Hearing something other than speculation. So given that you think your _ **speculation** _ is evidence of facts, you obviously have no idea what you are talking about and presenting you evidence and reasonable inferences based on evidence is a total waste of time. You have to comprehend it before you can assess it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028.md?page=36) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028.md?page=38)