# The pitting of people who mistakenly conflate justice with legality (Martin/Zimmerman related) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 20, 2013, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028 "2013-07-20T13:04:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 42
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2013, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/821 "2013-09-08T19:57:41Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > :rolleyes: Well, that’s not to say that’s the _only_ way you can prove me wrong, but it’s telling you won’t even try. It’s also telling that you’re not responding to **Bricker** ’s clarification. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2013, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/822 "2013-09-08T21:47:09Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Because she is, yet again, starting from a false premise, which invalidates any conclusion she might draw. That premise being that, because the defendant is charged with a crime, there must be evidence that he’s guilty, even if such evidence has not been produced. > > ETA She has stated that the appeal court will uphold the conviction - in post 800. Are you saying she’s correct there? No, she’s wrong, but she’s wrong because of unrelated assumptions of hers that I corrected in post 809. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2013, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/823 "2013-09-08T21:54:16Z")
And just to dispose of the “fight the hypothetical” question of why the charges were brought: Sean had said he’d testify that the coins all landed “heads.” At trial, he did not so testify, and the judge did not permit the prosecution to impeach Sean with evidence of his prior statements. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/824 "2013-09-09T19:02:45Z")
By the way, **Kimmy\_Gibbler** , Research Diety-Elect, just posted this in a related discussion: > [@](#): > > U.S. v. Burgos, 94 F.3d 849 (4th Cir. 1996): > > Quote: > Although this [the Fourth] circuit has not squarely addressed the issue of what inferences are permissible from disbelief, we have (before today) indicated that the Government cannot prove its case by negative inferences based on demeanor evidence. See United States v. Fountain, 993 F.2d 1136, 1139 (4th Cir.1993) (“while [the defendant’s] evidence may be disbelieved, it contained nothing which, through disbelief, could be converted to positive proof of distribution of marijuana by him”). I would take this opportunity to adopt the longstanding view that demeanor evidence (i.e., evidence inferred from the assumption that the jury disbelieved the defendant’s testimony) does not allow us on appellate review to fill the evidentiary gaps in the Government’s case. See Dyer v. MacDougall, 201 F.2d 265 (2d Cir.1952) (Hand, J.). See generally Olin Guy Wellborn, III, Demeanor, 76 Cornell L.Rev. 1075, 1101-02 (1991) (“Hundreds of cases say … [m]ere disbelief of testimony is not proof of facts of an opposite nature or tendency.”). ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/825 "2013-09-09T19:46:23Z")
George Zimmerman just threatened his [wife with a gun.](http://news.yahoo.com/fla-police-called-george-zimmerman-190721924.html). Shows you his character. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/826 "2013-09-09T20:06:11Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > George Zimmerman just threatened his [wife with a gun.](http://news.yahoo.com/fla-police-called-george-zimmerman-190721924.html). Shows you his character. According to [CNN, no gun involved](http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/09/us/george-zimmerman-detained/index.html?hpt=hp_c2): > [@](#): > > George Zimmerman was taken into custody Monday after an apparent domestic altercation with his wife and her father at a home in Lake Mary, Florida, police said. > “As of right now, (George Zimmerman) has been placed in investigative detention,” Lake Mary police spokesman Zach Hudson said. > The incident comes two months after Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch volunteer, was found not guilty of murder in the shooting death of Trayvon Martin in Sanford, Florida. > Hudson said a gun was found in the Lake Mary home, but he added that it was not a part of the altercation. ---
**Author:** ![GSV\_Consolation\_of\_Dreams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f1d935/32.png) [@GSV\_Consolation\_of\_Dreams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GSV_Consolation_of_Dreams)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/827 "2013-09-09T20:08:56Z")
She says he did. She is also an admitted perjurer, trying to divorce him. Why should we believe a single word of her story? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/828 "2013-09-09T20:16:19Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > George Zimmerman just threatened his [wife with a gun.](http://news.yahoo.com/fla-police-called-george-zimmerman-190721924.html). Shows you his character. _It is claimed_ that he did so. That you believe it without any supporting evidence shows \*your \*character well. If it’s proven he used a weapon illegally, or otherwise threatened or attacked his wife, he should be punished. Unless and until that happens, he should be considered innocent. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/829 "2013-09-09T20:32:34Z")
He sounds like such a nice young man. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/830 "2013-09-09T21:10:44Z")
> [@GSV\_Consolation\_of\_Dreams](#): > > She says he did. She is also an admitted perjurer, trying to divorce him. \*\* Why should we believe a single word of her story?\*\* Wow. Just wow. These are the times I realize that I’m very, very fortunate to be a man. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/831 "2013-09-09T21:11:10Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > According to [CNN, no gun involved](http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/09/us/george-zimmerman-detained/index.html?hpt=hp_c2): I assume the content has changed, as I don’t see that last sentence anywhere in the linked article. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/832 "2013-09-09T21:16:41Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > According to [CNN, no gun involved](http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/09/us/george-zimmerman-detained/index.html?hpt=hp_c2): Um, in the link it says: > [@](#): > > Wife tells 911 George Zimmerman allegedly threatened her, her dad with gun I predicted in one of these threads that Zimmerman would be back in the spotlight again. He’s a narcissist and he can’t get enough of it. It’s the reason why he’ can’t stop getting into the news - speeding, visiting gun factories, pretending to be Superman. After he was acquitted, he didn’t even have the decency to stand by his wife when she perjured herself _for him_, despite her being there for him. She was tossed away like a piece of trash. Poor thing. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/833 "2013-09-09T21:18:19Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > According to [CNN, no gun involved](http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/09/us/george-zimmerman-detained/index.html?hpt=hp_c2): > > > [@](#): > > > > Hudson said a gun was found in the Lake Mary home, but he added that it was not a part of the altercation. That text does not appear in the article you linked to. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/834 "2013-09-09T21:20:53Z")
It does say the article was updated at 4:35 EDT, after **Bricker** posted. It’s interesting that they would edit that statement out. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/835 "2013-09-09T21:25:32Z")
Maybe it was God’s will. And the GZ Ass-Kissing Society will wave away yet another violent act by this psychopath. ---
**Author:** ![GSV\_Consolation\_of\_Dreams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f1d935/32.png) [@GSV\_Consolation\_of\_Dreams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GSV_Consolation_of_Dreams)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/836 "2013-09-09T21:26:48Z")
So you’ve got nothing then. An accusation is as good as proof to you it seems. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/837 "2013-09-09T21:30:21Z")
[QUOTE=GSV] So you’ve got nothing then. An accusation is as good as proof to you it seems. [/QUOTE] [Link](http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-custody-domestic-incident-involving-gun/story?id=20203329) > [@](#): > > In the 911 call, Shellie Zimmerman tells a dispatcher that her husband was in his car raging, adding “he continually has his hand on his gun and he says step closer…” When Shellie Zimmerman trails off the dispatcher asks “step closer and what?” to which Shellie responds “a Step closer and he’d shoot us.” > > Shellie Zimmerman and her father have refused to give police a sworn statement and have said they do not want to press charges, Bracknell said. Both Shellie’s lawyer, Kelly Sims, as well as George Zimmerman’s lawyer are at the home, ABC News has learned. > > Police said that their hands are tied if Shellie Zimmerman and her father do not want to press charges. They told ABC News they were trying to figure out “what we have.” > > But the 911 tapes describe a terrified Shellie Zimmerman. \*\*On the call to a police dispatcher she told police that her husband punched her father in the nose, smashed her iPad, cut it with a pocketknife \*\*and raged, “one step closer and he’d shoot us.” > > “ **I don’t know what he’s capable of. I am really, really scared** ” she told the dispatcher. I said it before, I say it again, when you have a history of domestic violence against women, violence against police officers, bullying of colleagues and coworkers, molesting/touching family members, and lying, you’re a sociopath and nothing you say should be taken at face value. Is it not fascinating that Zimmerman hit Shellie’s father in the nose? Too bad he didn’t have a gun so that he could’ve “stood his ground”. The story is still breaking but I hope we get to see a picture of her father’s nose as well as the belongings he broken by Zimmerman. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![Doug\_K](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5ac83/32.png) [@Doug\_K](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doug_K)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/838 "2013-09-09T21:30:53Z")
> [@black\_rabbit](#): > > That text does not appear in the article you linked to. It does appear in [this article](http://www.kutv.com/news/features/national/stories/vid_3036.shtml) (among others), which is attributed to CNN. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/839 "2013-09-09T21:58:40Z")
I’m getting sick and tired of seeing this guy in the news. Why the fuck, if you escaped conviction in a highly charged case, would you consistently do things that put you back in the news time and time again? This guy needs to take a lesson from Casey Anthony and just disappear ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/840 "2013-09-09T22:29:53Z")
Go where? He’s broke, he owes his lawyers his very ass, nobody wants to write him any checks for his story. And his face has been all over the news for years. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028.md?page=41) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028.md?page=43)