# The pitting of people who mistakenly conflate justice with legality (Martin/Zimmerman related) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 20, 2013, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028 "2013-07-20T13:04:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 43
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/841 "2013-09-09T22:33:40Z")
> [@Doug\_K](#): > > It does appear in [this article](http://www.kutv.com/news/features/national/stories/vid_3036.shtml) (among others), which is attributed to CNN. I don’t know how to ask this without sounding crazy, but am I the only one cracking up over the stretched out picture of George Zimmerman? Or is it just showing up like this on my monitor for some crazy reason? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/842 "2013-09-09T23:10:31Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > According to [CNN, no gun involved](http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/09/us/george-zimmerman-detained/index.html?hpt=hp_c2): Oh, well that makes it okay then. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2013, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/843 "2013-09-09T23:16:01Z")
He punched his father-in-law in the nose and his father-in-law didn’t shoot him for it? What a pussy! ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/844 "2013-09-10T01:10:53Z")
Dear Shellie, I love how you say don’t know what he’s capable of. Of course you do, you little shithead. That’s the fuck why you called 911. Instead of calling 911 the next time he punches your paw and threatens to shoot you, please consider standing your ground. Haven’t you learned anything? Or maybe you have and that’s why you’re asking for that policy. Hmmmmm. Go on’head, girl. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/845 "2013-09-10T01:17:18Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Oh, well that makes it okay then. :rolleyes: Well, no, nor did I say it was OK. I’m at a loss to figure out why you’d insert such an utterly useless comment into the thread. My best guess is you have no appreciation for the presumed mission of the board, and really are actively opposed to fighting ignorance. Indeed, it seems for your statement that you’d like to encourage it. Is that true? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/846 "2013-09-10T01:19:51Z")
From the link in post 838: > [@](#): > > George Zimmerman’s attorney says his client never threatened his estranged wife and her father with a gun even though Shellie Zimmerman reported that in a 911 call. And now Shellie and her father are declining the chance to press charges. Sounds to me like domestic violence of the non-lethal type was in play here. The police don’t need the victim to press charges if there’s external evidence of injury. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/847 "2013-09-10T01:21:26Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > _It is claimed_ that he did so. That you believe it without any supporting evidence shows \*your \*character well. > > If it’s proven he used a weapon illegally, or otherwise threatened or attacked his wife, he should be punished. Unless and until that happens, he should be considered innocent. Shut up, Steotard. I can’t believe you still think the legal presumption of innocence applies to people on a message board. No wonder you like to tell me shut up–you apparently can’t read. And note how I can figure out which forum that type of comment is okay in? Also: public announcement: future use will of “Shut up, BigTard” will be assumed to be an attempt to bait me. It won’t make me shut up, but chances are I’ve already said what I wanted to say before anyone says it, and I’m not going to keep on expending the energy just to prove I will never shut up when told. I just couldn’t resist doing it here. To think, I actually respected **Steophan** ’s intelligence before that comment. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/848 "2013-09-10T01:24:40Z")
> [@](#): > > George Zimmerman’s attorney says his client never threatened his estranged wife and her father with a gun even though Shellie Zimmerman reported that in a 911 call. And if there are two people who would never paint George Zimmerman in the best light to avoid prosecution, it’s George Zimmerman, and George Zimmerman’s attorney. Nothing to see here, I suppose. Why can’t we all just leave poor Zimmie alone, free to stand his ground as much as he friggin’ want’s to, huh? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/849 "2013-09-10T01:25:18Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Shut up, Steotard. I can’t believe you still think the legal presumption of innocence applies to people on a message board. No wonder you like to tell me shut up–you apparently can’t read. > > And note how I can figure out which forum that type of comment is okay in? The legal presumption of innocence is a very high bar: evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. I agree that’s not suitable for matters of general discussion (although when discussing whether or not someone should be convicted, obviously that’s the only appropriate standard). But in my view, there still ought to be _some_ kind of standard for people discussing a topic on a board that is supposedly interested in reducing the ignorance in the world. That is, we should all seek to discourage claims made without at least some basis in fact, shouldn’t we? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/850 "2013-09-10T01:27:05Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > And if there are two people who would never paint George Zimmerman in the best light to avoid prosecution, it’s George Zimmerman, and George Zimmerman’s attorney. Nothing to see here, I suppose. > > Why can’t we all just leave poor Zimmie alone, free to stand his ground as much as he friggin’ want’s to, huh? Sure. But by the same token, Shellie Zimmerman is in the midst of divorce. She isn’t disposed to be particularly generous towards her husband, I imagine. Why should her word be taken as authoritative and Zimmerman (or his lawyer) as worthless? ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/851 "2013-09-10T01:32:52Z")
It really is amazing that despite the myriad things that ol’ George has been accused of doing, none of it holds water … on nothing but the claim of George - or his attorney - himself. He really must be the unluckiest mother-humper on the planet to keep getting all these aspersions cast upon him. The deceased thug, Trayvon Martin, notwithstanding, that is. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/852 "2013-09-10T01:35:16Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > It really is amazing that despite the myriad things that ol’ George has been accused of doing, none of it holds water … on nothing but the claim of George - or his attorney - himself. He really must be the unluckiest mother-humper on the planet to keep getting all these aspersions cast upon him. > > The deceased thug, Trayvon Martin, notwithstanding, that is. What does the word “myriad” mean? And imagine how batshit you’d get if someone came along and said, “Despite the many accusations leveled at President Obama, isn’t it ‘amazing’ his supporters deny them all?” You’d protest, quite correctly, that the number of accusations (or the number of accusers) isn’t at all the standard by which we judge the truth of the accusation. At least I hope you would. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/853 "2013-09-10T01:45:29Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Shut up, Steotard. Ok, I deserved that. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/854 "2013-09-10T01:48:23Z")
When was the last time Obama shot an unarmed teenager in the chest and then punched his father-in-law in the face (in light of his past run-ins with the law and instances of impulse control like our hero, The Zim)? Get back to me when anything remotely like that happens and I’ll address your dopey point. And you can look up “myriad” yourself - what am I, your tutor, or something? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/855 "2013-09-10T01:51:23Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > When was the last time Obama shot an unarmed teenager in the chest and then punched his father-in-law in the face (in light of his past run-ins with the law and instances of impulse control like our hero, The Zim)? Get back to me when anything remotely like that happens and I’ll address your dopey point. A week last Thursday. Hey, why don’t you believe me? I’ve never been convicted of perjury, so I’m not the least reliable witness being referred to here. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/856 "2013-09-10T01:52:47Z")
I look forward, then, to Obama’s complete vindication in a Florida court of law. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/857 "2013-09-10T01:55:46Z")
I wouldn’t make Michelle mad at me if I had an armored division for a personal bodyguard. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/858 "2013-09-10T02:25:13Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > When was the last time Obama shot an unarmed teenager in the chest and then punched his father-in-law in the face (in light of his past run-ins with the law and instances of impulse control like our hero, The Zim)? Get back to me when anything remotely like that happens and I’ll address your dopey point. > > And you can look up “myriad” yourself - what am I, your tutor, or something? Thus far, I keep hearing Mandy Patinkin say, “I do not think it means what you think it means.” So in my view, your professional qualifications do not appear to extend to tutoring. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/859 "2013-09-10T02:28:32Z")
**Legal Question:** Would it mess up Shellie Zimmerman’s probation terms if she was charged with anything in this situation? I imagine George would file counter charges if they decided to go forward with charges against him, so maybe that was a consideration for her and her father. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2013, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028/860 "2013-09-10T02:49:23Z")
> [@camille](#): > > **Legal Question:** Would it mess up Shellie Zimmerman’s probation terms if she was charged with anything in this situation? No. > [@](#): > > I imagine George would file counter charges if they decided to go forward with charges against him, so maybe that was a consideration for her and her father. I suppose it’s possible, but so far as I can see, her probation terms would not enter into it. Zimmerman has volunteered the surveillance tapes from the house, and police are reviewing them, so I imagine that anything on those tapes does not implicate him. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028.md?page=42) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pitting-of-people-who-mistakenly-conflate-justice-with-legality-martin-zimmerman-related/664028.md?page=44)