# The players tried to leave the field, the marching band refused to yield, what details have been concealed, the way they tased this guy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [September 16, 2023, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-players-tried-to-leave-the-field-the-marching-band-refused-to-yield-what-details-have-been-concealed-the-way-they-tased-this-guy/990216 "2023-09-16T19:45:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2023, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-players-tried-to-leave-the-field-the-marching-band-refused-to-yield-what-details-have-been-concealed-the-way-they-tased-this-guy/990216/402 "2023-09-23T22:46:16Z")
_You can travel 'cross this entire land_ _There ain’t no place like Birmingham_ ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2023, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-players-tried-to-leave-the-field-the-marching-band-refused-to-yield-what-details-have-been-concealed-the-way-they-tased-this-guy/990216/403 "2023-09-24T09:21:11Z")
I still can’t get over how the cops were treating him like a criminal right from the get-go. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2023, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-players-tried-to-leave-the-field-the-marching-band-refused-to-yield-what-details-have-been-concealed-the-way-they-tased-this-guy/990216/404 "2023-09-24T19:19:10Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > Disobeying the law is an ACTION, not a verbal expression. Right, and therefore, since the director didn’t take any ACTION, he was not disobeying the law. > [@excavating\_for\_a\_mind](#): > > In this instance, I believe the band director should have done as the police directed. He should have stopped the band from playing, He did. And it’s misleading to say that the cops should have “de-escalated” this situation. There wasn’t any escalation to de, until the cops escalated it. All the cops needed to do here was nothing. > [@excavating\_for\_a\_mind](#): > > What is known is that if Mr. Mims had complied with the orders he was given by the cops, there would not have been an altercation. This is the opposite of what’s known. He was assaulted after he had complied with the police’s unlawful orders. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2023, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-players-tried-to-leave-the-field-the-marching-band-refused-to-yield-what-details-have-been-concealed-the-way-they-tased-this-guy/990216/405 "2023-09-24T19:29:34Z")
Yeah, but: - Will you recall what was the deal, the day the music died…\* ---
**Author:** ![Sylvanz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/fbc32d/32.png) [@Sylvanz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sylvanz)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2023, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-players-tried-to-leave-the-field-the-marching-band-refused-to-yield-what-details-have-been-concealed-the-way-they-tased-this-guy/990216/406 "2023-09-25T04:17:48Z")
Ah, quoting songs about Birmingham and the OP title: > I would walk all the way from Boulder to Birmingham > If I thought I could see could see your face. > **[‘I was just doing my job:’ Minor HS band director, attorney speak at press...](https://www.cbs42.com/news/local/watch-alabama-education-association-to-discuss-tasing-arrest-of-minor-hs-band-director/)** > > The Alabama Education Association (AEA) is hosting a press conference to discuss the tasing and arrest of Minor High School Band Director Johnny Mims.  More on topic. ---
**Author:** ![tofor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tofor/32/13727_2.png) [@tofor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tofor)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2023, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-players-tried-to-leave-the-field-the-marching-band-refused-to-yield-what-details-have-been-concealed-the-way-they-tased-this-guy/990216/407 "2023-09-25T13:20:02Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Right, and therefore, since the director didn’t take any ACTION, he was not disobeying the law. “I did not pay my taxes this year. Since NOT paying is not ACTION, I was not disobeying the law.” Somehow I think the IRS will take issue with your logic. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2023, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-players-tried-to-leave-the-field-the-marching-band-refused-to-yield-what-details-have-been-concealed-the-way-they-tased-this-guy/990216/408 "2023-09-25T13:40:59Z")
So someone from your county government comes to you and asks you to hand over $1500 for “County Income Tax”. Your state does not have county income taxes. Do you hand over $1500 and sort it out in court later? ---
**Author:** ![tofor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tofor/32/13727_2.png) [@tofor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tofor)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2023, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-players-tried-to-leave-the-field-the-marching-band-refused-to-yield-what-details-have-been-concealed-the-way-they-tased-this-guy/990216/409 "2023-09-25T13:57:04Z")
How is that relevant? The question is whether non-action can be illegal. Which of course it can. For example, NOT paying your taxes or NOT stopping your car before crashing into a pedestrian. All kinds of non-action are illegal. And pulling your arms away from the police trying to handcuff you IS AN ACTION anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2023, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-players-tried-to-leave-the-field-the-marching-band-refused-to-yield-what-details-have-been-concealed-the-way-they-tased-this-guy/990216/410 "2023-09-25T14:15:55Z")
Refusing to obey a LAWFUL order is resisting, if a cop comes up to you drops trou and asks you to service him, are you resisting if you don’t drop to your knees in ten seconds? Twenty seconds? When another cop comes by and threatens to taze you if you don’t comply? You seem to be starting with the assumption that order from guy with gun, badge and uniform is automatically a lawful order. Take away that premise and everything you’re saying is rubbished. ---
**Author:** ![tofor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tofor/32/13727_2.png) [@tofor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tofor)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2023, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-players-tried-to-leave-the-field-the-marching-band-refused-to-yield-what-details-have-been-concealed-the-way-they-tased-this-guy/990216/411 "2023-09-25T14:44:10Z")
I don’t know what you think I’m saying, but what I am saying is that non action can be illegal. I’m responding to this: > [@Chronos](#): > > Right, and therefore, since the director didn’t take any ACTION, he was not disobeying the law. Which is clearly wrong and absurd. > [@Mighty\_Mouse](#): > > You seem to be starting with the assumption that order from guy with gun, badge and uniform is automatically a lawful order. Did I say that? Where did I say that? I said Mims was resisting arrest at the time he was tazed, and I said doing so was an affirmative action, and I said non-action can be illegal. I did not say this justified the tazing, I did not say the arrest itself was justified. You are conflating my actual position (he _did_ resist) with a different position (he _should not_ have resisted). ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2023, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-players-tried-to-leave-the-field-the-marching-band-refused-to-yield-what-details-have-been-concealed-the-way-they-tased-this-guy/990216/412 "2023-09-25T15:12:29Z")
So in my example your not dropping to your knees is resisting, right? ---
**Author:** ![tofor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tofor/32/13727_2.png) [@tofor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tofor)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2023, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-players-tried-to-leave-the-field-the-marching-band-refused-to-yield-what-details-have-been-concealed-the-way-they-tased-this-guy/990216/413 "2023-09-25T15:24:37Z")
Your example not relevant, because nobody is being arrested. You persist in trying to attribute arguments to me I have not made. ---
**Author:** ![mjmartin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3d9bf3/32.png) [@mjmartin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mjmartin)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2023, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-players-tried-to-leave-the-field-the-marching-band-refused-to-yield-what-details-have-been-concealed-the-way-they-tased-this-guy/990216/414 "2023-09-25T15:59:19Z")
> [@Mighty\_Mouse](#): > > Refusing to obey a LAWFUL order is resisting, if a cop comes up to you drops trou and asks you to service him, are you resisting if you don’t drop to your knees in ten seconds? Twenty seconds? When another cop comes by and threatens to taze you if you don’t comply? In your example, a person could not be found guilty of refusing to comply with an order to service an officer, and in all likelihood could not be found guilty of resisting arrest if he resisted arrest for failing to service the officer, because an officer could not reasonably believe that you were committing a crime. However, in Mims’ case, the issue is a little more complex. Mims was charged with three crimes, disorderly conduct, harassment and resisting arrest. Here is the disorderly conduct statute he was charged with: **Universal Citation:** [AL Code § 13A-11-7 (2013)](https://law.justia.com/citations.html) **Section 13A-11-7** **Disorderly conduct.** (a) **A person commits the crime of disorderly conduct if, with intent to cause public inconvenience, annoyance or alarm, or recklessly creating a risk thereof, he or she does any of the following:** (1) Engages in fighting or in violent tumultuous or threatening behavior. (2) Makes unreasonable noise. (3) In a public place uses abusive or obscene language or makes an obscene gesture. (4) Without lawful authority, disturbs any lawful assembly or meeting of persons. (5) Obstructs vehicular or pedestrian traffic, or a transportation facility. (6) **Congregates with other person in a public place and refuses to comply with a lawful order of law enforcement to disperse.** I think an officer could reasonably believe that Mims’ was in violation of section 6. Case law in Alabama has found that a person can be guilty of resisting arrest even if he is later found not guilty of the underlying charge, which Mims should be. “However, this Court has expressly rejected a claim that a conviction for resisting arrest cannot stand in light of an acquittal of the offense that gave rise to the arrest.” Clemons v. City of Saraland, 334 So. 3d 278 (2021). So, assuming the court finds that an officer had a reasonable belief that he had probable cause to arrest Mims for disorderly conduct (or harassment), Mims could not legally resist the arrest. Your example is very different. Here is a list of actions that can be used to show a person resisted arrest from an Alabama criminal lawyer’s webpage: ## **WHAT RESISTING ARREST CAN LOOK LIKE** You may be accused of resisting arrest for doing any of the following: - **Physically struggling against** or striking an officer while he or she is trying to arrest you; - Providing a fake name or other inaccurate personal information to a law enforcement officer; or - **Forcing an officer to lift or drag you to make the arrest.** None of this goes to whether Mims should have been tased, whether the officers acted appropriately, or whether Mims will be convicted on the underlying charges. Each one of those have completely different factors. But if I were betting on this case, I would feel most confident of a conviction on the resisting arrest charge. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2023, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-players-tried-to-leave-the-field-the-marching-band-refused-to-yield-what-details-have-been-concealed-the-way-they-tased-this-guy/990216/415 "2023-09-25T16:26:47Z")
> [@mjmartin](#): > > I would feel most confident of a conviction on the resisting arrest charge. Is there case law for someone who was convicted of resisting an UNLAWFUL arrest? It seems like this would give open license to police to convict pretty much anyone they wanted, anytime: 1. Give someone an unlawful order. “you there, hop on one foot!” 2. Proceed to arrest them for disorderly conduct. 3. Grab them and pull back and forth, causing a “physical struggle” Yell “STOP RESISTING! STOP RESISTING” loudly. 4. Disorderly conduct charge thrown out in court. Unlawful order noted. Resisting arrest upheld, person gets a criminal conviction. 5. Maybe… the police officer gets a note on his file: “bad judgement shown”. After 10 of these, he’ll get a day suspension (with pay) Pretty sweet deal to basically convict anyone you want at any time for “resisting arrest” ---
**Author:** ![mjmartin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3d9bf3/32.png) [@mjmartin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mjmartin)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2023, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-players-tried-to-leave-the-field-the-marching-band-refused-to-yield-what-details-have-been-concealed-the-way-they-tased-this-guy/990216/416 "2023-09-25T16:35:24Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Is there case law for someone who was convicted of resisting an UNLAWFUL arrest? I don’t know. Haven’t taken the time to research it. > [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Give someone an unlawful order. “you there, hop on one foot!” There would be a problem with your bad officer’s plan, though. There is nothing in the disorderly conduct statute about disobeying an order to hop on 1 foot (or disobeying anything other then an order to disperse). I do take your point. There is a reason why people refer to disorderly conduct laws as “contempt of cop” charges. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2023, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-players-tried-to-leave-the-field-the-marching-band-refused-to-yield-what-details-have-been-concealed-the-way-they-tased-this-guy/990216/417 "2023-09-25T16:54:46Z")
> [@mjmartin](#): > > There would be a problem with your bad officer’s plan, though. There is nothing in the disorderly conduct statute about disobeying an order to hop on 1 foot And that is why the disorderly conduct charge would be thrown out of court. (or never make it to court). But the resisting arrest charge would stick according to your post above. IMO, in the band director case under discussion, all charges will be dropped - they will not want this to go on. But in cases with no publicity, I also guess that “resisting” charges are often totally bogus. ---
**Author:** ![mjmartin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3d9bf3/32.png) [@mjmartin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mjmartin)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2023, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-players-tried-to-leave-the-field-the-marching-band-refused-to-yield-what-details-have-been-concealed-the-way-they-tased-this-guy/990216/418 "2023-09-25T17:02:36Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > And that is why the disorderly conduct charge would be thrown out of court. (or never make it to court). But the resisting arrest charge would stick. But for a resisting arrest conviction, the state would have to prove it was a lawful arrest. Unfortunately, I haven’t been able to find the pattern jury instructions for resisting arrest. In states that I am more familiar with, there is a requirement for conviction is that a officer had a reasonable belief that there was probable cause for the arrest. > [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > IMO, in the band director case under discussion, all charges will be dropped - they will not want this to go on. I hope so, and it would be the right outcome. I wouldn’t be surprised if the City pushed it though, as a defense against the inevitable unlawful arrest lawsuit that Mims and his attorney are preparing. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2023, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-players-tried-to-leave-the-field-the-marching-band-refused-to-yield-what-details-have-been-concealed-the-way-they-tased-this-guy/990216/419 "2023-09-25T17:12:54Z")
> [@mjmartin](#): > > But for a resisting arrest conviction, the state would have to prove it was a lawful arrest I hope so. But in the current case under discussion, there is some doubt as to whether or not the arrest of the band conductor was lawful. Thus I am confused by your earlier statement that > " But if I were betting on this case, I would feel most confident of a conviction on the resisting arrest charge." ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2023, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-players-tried-to-leave-the-field-the-marching-band-refused-to-yield-what-details-have-been-concealed-the-way-they-tased-this-guy/990216/420 "2023-09-25T17:18:42Z")
I think the logic being used is that it has to be very, very, very obvious (like in my drop trou example) that there was no legitimate reason for the arrest. Drop one of those verys and bob’s your uncle. Or put another way, if the guy has a badge and a gun, there is an almost absolute presumption that the order is lawful. ---
**Author:** ![mjmartin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3d9bf3/32.png) [@mjmartin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mjmartin)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2023, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-players-tried-to-leave-the-field-the-marching-band-refused-to-yield-what-details-have-been-concealed-the-way-they-tased-this-guy/990216/421 "2023-09-25T17:19:22Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > I hope so. But in the current case under discussion, there is some doubt as to whether or not the arrest of the band conductor was lawful. Thus I am confused by your earlier statement that > > > " But if I were betting on this case, I would feel most confident of a conviction on the resisting arrest charge." Only my opinion, but I think that a judge/jury would find that the officer’s belief that Mims violated section (6) of the D.O. statute was reasonable. Not that it was necessarily enough to get a conviction, but enough to be reasonable for a lawful arrest. Even more so, the Harassment Statute: **(1)** HARASSMENT. A person commits the crime of harassment if, with intent to harass, annoy, or alarm another person, he or she either: **a.** **Strikes, shoves, kicks, or otherwise touches a person or subjects him or her to physical contact.** There is clearly a dispute that Mims struck the officer. But I don’t think there is any dispute that the officer **believed** that Mims struck another officer. Based on that alone, Mims is going to have a hard time saying that the arrest was unlawful. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-players-tried-to-leave-the-field-the-marching-band-refused-to-yield-what-details-have-been-concealed-the-way-they-tased-this-guy/990216.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-players-tried-to-leave-the-field-the-marching-band-refused-to-yield-what-details-have-been-concealed-the-way-they-tased-this-guy/990216.md?page=22)