# The Pledge of Allegiance **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 26, 2015, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pledge-of-allegiance/713643 "2015-02-26T05:09:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2015, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pledge-of-allegiance/713643/1 "2015-02-26T05:09:29Z")
This might be weird, but I have been thinking about the Pledge a lot. Mostly because I forgot it was even a thing from around jr high til a few months back when I wound up in a municipal meeting (was there for the food) which opened with a mandatory recitation of the pledge. It seemed like a weird, obligatory thing to do as an adult. My questions are: 1. Does taking the Pledge hold any actual enforceable repercussions? I know immigrants must take an oath as well. Are these oaths legally binding or otherwise enforceable? I wonder what the point for adults taking such Pledges, because as a tool of indoctrination, it would work better on children. I understand we have a right to refuse taking the Pledge, but I understand immigrants MUST take the allegiance oath. Is breaking that oath enforceable in and of itself? 1. Can ANYONE take the Pledge–such as foreign nationals? 2. Is anyone disallowed from taking the Pledge? Like expatriates, defectors, criminals, exiles, etc? ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2015, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pledge-of-allegiance/713643/2 "2015-02-26T05:19:39Z")
> [@Dr.Colossus](#): > > 1. Does taking the Pledge hold any actual enforceable repercussions? This is impossible, because some people refuse to say it, and there can’t be a special legal status for them. It would be contrary to the First Amendment, via at least two different theories (compelled speech and free exercise of religion). > [@](#): > > 1. Can ANYONE take the Pledge–such as foreign nationals? Who’d stop them? > [@](#): > > 1. Is anyone disallowed from taking the Pledge? Like expatriates, defectors, criminals, exiles, etc? Again, who’d stop them? ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2015, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pledge-of-allegiance/713643/3 "2015-02-26T05:26:27Z")
> [@](#): > > _I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all._ > **[Pledge of Allegiance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance)** > > The Pledge of Allegiance is a patriotic recited verse that promises allegiance to the flag of the United States and the republic of the United States of America. The first version was written in 1885 by Captain George Thatcher Balch, a Union Army officer in the Civil War who later authored a book on how to teach patriotism to children in public schools. In 1892, Francis Bellamy revised Balch's verse as part of a magazine promotion surrounding the World's Columbian Exposition, which celeb Bella... ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2015, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pledge-of-allegiance/713643/4 "2015-02-26T12:06:09Z")
Interesting that you pledge alliance to a flag. Having a monarch makes a much better oath: _I, (Insert full name), do swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth, her heirs and successors, according to law. So help me God._ (The God bit is optional) ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2015, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pledge-of-allegiance/713643/5 "2015-02-26T12:51:06Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > Interesting that you pledge alliance to a flag. Having a monarch makes a much better oath: _I, (Insert full name), do swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth, her heirs and successors, according to law. So help me God._ (The God bit is optional) Well, the monarch represents the nation, and as we did not include even a ceremonial monarchy in our Constitution pledging to the flag as the representation of the nation makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![BOOM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c4cdca/32.png) [@BOOM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BOOM)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2015, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pledge-of-allegiance/713643/6 "2015-02-26T13:37:44Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > Interesting that you pledge alliance to a flag. Having a monarch makes a much better oath: _I, (Insert full name), do swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth, her heirs and successors, according to law. So help me God._ (The God bit is optional) Who the hell says this? Is it a boyscout thing? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2015, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pledge-of-allegiance/713643/7 "2015-02-26T14:30:25Z")
> [@Dr.Colossus](#): > > 1. Does taking the Pledge hold any actual enforceable repercussions? I know immigrants must take an oath as well. Are these oaths legally binding or otherwise enforceable? I wonder what the point for adults taking such Pledges, because as a tool of indoctrination, it would work better on children. > > I understand we have a right to refuse taking the Pledge, but I understand immigrants MUST take the allegiance oath. Is breaking that oath enforceable in and of itself? > > 1. Can ANYONE take the Pledge–such as foreign nationals? > > 2. Is anyone disallowed from taking the Pledge? Like expatriates, defectors, criminals, exiles, etc? No, yes, no, for the reasons **Derleth** notes, basically. > [@BOOM](#): > > Who the hell says this? > > Is it a boyscout thing? Civil servants, military personnel and MPs, IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![Doc\_Dish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5e925/32.png) [@Doc\_Dish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doc_Dish)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2015, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pledge-of-allegiance/713643/8 "2015-02-26T14:40:47Z")
> [@BOOM](#): > > Who the hell says this? > > Is it a boyscout thing? On my honour, I promise that I will do my best To do my duty to God and to the Queen, To help other people And to keep the Scout Law P.S. We don’t have Boy Scouts in the UK, just Scouts. ---
**Author:** ![SimonMoon5](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@SimonMoon5](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SimonMoon5)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2015, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pledge-of-allegiance/713643/9 "2015-02-26T15:46:22Z")
> [@BOOM](#): > > Who the hell says this? At least when I was a child, it was required of every elementary (and possibly later) school child. And as an adult, this seems weird, as a child has no idea what he’s really committing too, and if the pledge is required, it really has no meaning anyway, especially since nobody can enforce it. It’s not like a cop will arrest you for not being true to your pledge to the flag. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2015, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pledge-of-allegiance/713643/10 "2015-02-26T15:56:26Z")
> [@Dr.Colossus](#): > > … > > 1. Does taking the Pledge hold any actual enforceable repercussions? I know immigrants must take an oath as well. Are these oaths legally binding or otherwise enforceable? I wonder what the point for adults taking such Pledges, because as a tool of indoctrination, it would work better on children. > … It’s an interesting question, leading to questions as to whether or not, at least in theory, a kid could perjure himself at school by falsely pledging allegiance against his conscience. Yeah, if they found out, they probably wouldn’t prosecute - but it makes me wonder about whether the Pledge is recognized as an oath in law. Also - if the Pledge is an oath - what jurisdiction is it an oath with regards to? Typically, the Pledge is said under the direction of US public schools, which are mostly State government entities (or devolved local government entities operating subject to State Law), but the oath is, at least nominally, directed at the US Federal Government. If a kid perjures himself in homeroom period, did he commit a State crime of perjury or a Federal crime of perjury (or making false statements, obstruction of justice, etc.). ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2015, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pledge-of-allegiance/713643/11 "2015-02-26T16:13:32Z")
The pledge of allegiance is an (optional) ceremonial recitation and has no legal or official meaning whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![sciurophobic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@sciurophobic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sciurophobic)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2015, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pledge-of-allegiance/713643/12 "2015-02-26T17:03:02Z")
We said the Pledge of Allegiance every day in elementary school, and I still don’t know who Richard Stands is. ---
**Author:** ![gazpacho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6f9a4e/32.png) [@gazpacho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gazpacho)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2015, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pledge-of-allegiance/713643/13 "2015-02-26T17:31:29Z")
But did your pledge allegiance to the United Plates of Asparagus? I know that my friends and I did on occasion. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2015, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pledge-of-allegiance/713643/14 "2015-02-26T21:25:10Z")
I was in HS when they added god to the pledge and from that day forward I never said it again. I didn’t make a point of it and I don’t think anyone noticed. ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2015, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pledge-of-allegiance/713643/15 "2015-02-26T22:25:18Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > Interesting that you pledge alliance to a flag. Having a monarch makes a much better oath: _I, (Insert full name), do swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth, her heirs and successors, according to law. So help me God._ (The God bit is optional) Since you point out that this is an official oath for offices in your next post, it’s probably on point for the thread that the Flag isn’t part of Federal [oaths](http://twothirds.us/the-oaths-of-office/) of office/ military enlistment. \*\* The US Constitution is the common thread\*\*. In many it clarifies defense of the Constitution against “all enemies foreign and domestic.” The legally required oaths are to the core document laying down our principles of government. The symbolic pledge is to a symbol. Even the words of the pledge acknowledge it’s symbolic nature > [@](#): > > I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic **for which it stands** … ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2015, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pledge-of-allegiance/713643/16 "2015-02-26T22:30:53Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > It’s an interesting question, leading to questions as to whether or not, at least in theory, a kid could perjure himself at school by falsely pledging allegiance against his conscience. Yeah, if they found out, they probably wouldn’t prosecute - but it makes me wonder about whether the Pledge is recognized as an oath in law. > > Also - if the Pledge is an oath - what jurisdiction is it an oath with regards to? Typically, the Pledge is said under the direction of US public schools, which are mostly State government entities (or devolved local government entities operating subject to State Law), but the oath is, at least nominally, directed at the US Federal Government. If a kid perjures himself in homeroom period, did he commit a State crime of perjury or a Federal crime of perjury (or making false statements, obstruction of justice, etc.). This is the kind of cast from which I was looking at it. It seems nearly like a marriage vow in language–like a serious commitment. Saying it at age 34 for the first time in probably two decades–all because I was in an obligatory situation which I hadn’t anticipated. The whole time I thought “I am not sure I mean these words anymore–but I’m saying it, so does it mean anything?” Then the thought spilled out into oaths in general. Apparently, breaking an Oath of Office has repercussions under local parameters. Oaths of Allegiance seem to be taken more seriously when pledged to a monarch, like in Canada (from what I read) but I cannot find any Oath or Pledge accountability in America, not on any level. Which is why I turned to you guys. My research finds that breaking even the Hippocratic Oath is not directly punishable, although gross malpractice might end up in your licenses being revoked. I can’t find any solid accountability for oathbreakers. I just wrote my today’s [UF](https://www.facebook.com/uselessfactlets/photos/a.610021309110825.1073741829.609894725790150/714237355355886/?type=1&theater)post about the origin of the Pledge–seems it was initially a ploy to sell flags and up subscriptions to _Youth’s Companion_. In that sense, the whole Pledge seems rather innocuous and more of a gimmick than a binding oath. But that brings me back to the Oath of Allegiance new citizens must take. Is that held to any accountability? If not, why bother making people recite it? Simple ceremonious reasons? Also, it seems to me the whole addendum of “under God” seemed wrongheaded from the onset–as a method to re-establish the monotheistic foundations of this nation (which are mythological). No wonder that line causes so much controversy. ---
**Author:** ![GoodOmens](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d26b3c/32.png) [@GoodOmens](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GoodOmens)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2015, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pledge-of-allegiance/713643/17 "2015-02-26T22:36:01Z")
I’m honestly trying to remember the last time I said the Pledge, and figure it was probably on the order of 25 years ago. Always figured that an enforced loyalty pledge, especially for children, is among the most un-American things I can think of. ---
**Author:** ![BOOM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c4cdca/32.png) [@BOOM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BOOM)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2015, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pledge-of-allegiance/713643/18 "2015-02-26T22:38:18Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Civil servants, military personnel and MPs, IIRC. well, you don’t “IIRC”. ---
**Author:** ![BOOM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c4cdca/32.png) [@BOOM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BOOM)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2015, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pledge-of-allegiance/713643/19 "2015-02-26T22:39:54Z")
> [@SimonMoon5](#): > > At least when I was a child, it was required of every elementary (and possibly later) school child. > > And as an adult, this seems weird, as a child has no idea what he’s really committing too, and if the pledge is required, it really has no meaning anyway, especially since nobody can enforce it. It’s not like a cop will arrest you for not being true to your pledge to the flag. When were you a child, the 70s? I thought this thread was about this century. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2015, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pledge-of-allegiance/713643/20 "2015-02-26T22:41:39Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > It’s an interesting question, leading to questions as to whether or not, at least in theory, a kid could perjure himself at school by falsely pledging allegiance against his conscience. Yeah, if they found out, they probably wouldn’t prosecute - but it makes me wonder about whether the Pledge is recognized as an oath in law. > > Also - if the Pledge is an oath - what jurisdiction is it an oath with regards to? Typically, the Pledge is said under the direction of US public schools, which are mostly State government entities (or devolved local government entities operating subject to State Law), but the oath is, at least nominally, directed at the US Federal Government. If a kid perjures himself in homeroom period, did he commit a State crime of perjury or a Federal crime of perjury (or making false statements, obstruction of justice, etc.). :smack: Do they have wikipedia in your country? > [@Wikipedia](#): > > Perjury, also known as forswearing, is the intentional act of swearing a false oath or of falsifying an affirmation to tell the truth, whether spoken or in writing, concerning matters material to an official proceeding. Contrary to popular misconception, no crime has occurred when a false statement is (intentionally or unintentionally) made while under oath or subject to penalty—instead, criminal culpability only attaches at the instant the declarant falsely asserts the truth of statements (made or to be made) which are **material to the outcome of the proceeding** [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pledge-of-allegiance/713643.md?page=2)