# The Pledge of Allegiance **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 26, 2015, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pledge-of-allegiance/713643 "2015-02-26T05:09:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2015, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pledge-of-allegiance/713643/21 "2015-02-26T22:45:03Z")
> [@Dr.Colossus](#): > > I understand we have a right to refuse taking the Pledge, but I understand immigrants MUST take the allegiance oath. Is breaking that oath enforceable in and of itself? The [Oath of Allegiance](http://www.uscis.gov/policymanual/HTML/PolicyManual-Volume12-PartJ-Chapter2.html) is a much weightier and more substantive thing than the Pledge of Allegiance: > [@](#): > > I h​ereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God. The legal requirements for the Oath of Allegiance (or “Oath of renunciation and allegiance”) are set out in [8 U.S.C. 1448](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1448). Note that the oath, as given above, [can be modified in certain ways](http://www.uscis.gov/policymanual/HTML/PolicyManual-Volume12-PartJ-Chapter3.html): At the simple request of the applicant, it can be modified to say “solemnly affirm” instead of “declare on oath” and “so help me God” can be omitted. The references to bearing arms on behalf of the United States, and even of performing noncombatant service in the U.S. armed forces, can be dropped, but those modifications require “clear and convincing evidence” from the applicant of some genuine religious objection to such service (and may even require “an attestation from the religious organization explaining its beliefs and that the applicant is in good standing with the organization”), so you probably aren’t just going to be able to make up a religion on the spot. (Though there may also be court cases; IANAL.) And a naturalized citizen can’t get out of doing “work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law” no matter what. > [@](#): > > I understand immigrants MUST take the allegiance oath In general, the oath of allegiance is a requirement, but it can be waived “for an ​applicant who is unable to understand or to communicate an understanding of its meaning because of a physical or developmental disability or mental impairment”, which has also been deemed to include all children under the age of 14. > [@](#): > > Is breaking that oath enforceable in and of itself? Citizenship, whether for native-born or naturalized citizens [can be lost](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1481); I suppose this is like a divorce–you used to be a citizen (you used to be married), but now you aren’t. Naturalized citizenships can also be [revoked](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1451). In such cases, it may be found that the person didn’t actually [meet the requirements for naturalization](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1427); for example, if it turns out you didn’t _really_ “absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity” to His Majesty the King of Ruritania. If His Majesty had granted you a dukedom back in the Old Country, you’re supposed to separately renounce that at the time you take the Oath of Allegiance; if His Majesty had in fact made you a duke and you didn’t disclose that and renounce your title, that might be enough to revoke your naturalization. Mainly, if [you’re a Commie or something like that](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1424) this is deemed to show that you were not really “attached to the principles of the Constitution of the United States” and were not “well disposed to the good order and happiness of the United States” at the time you took the oath of allegiance. Revocation, if I’m not mistaken, is more like annulment–you were never really a citizen (were never really married) because your supposed citizenship (marriage) was based on fraud. Now “oath” doesn’t sound like a word. Oath oath oath. ---
**Author:** ![Bookkeeper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bookkeeper/32/281_2.png) [@Bookkeeper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bookkeeper)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2015, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pledge-of-allegiance/713643/22 "2015-02-26T22:49:00Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > No, yes, no, for the reasons **Derleth** notes, basically. > > Civil servants, military personnel and MPs, IIRC. I took the Canadian version when I joined the military, and again when I became a civil servant (the latter requirement was dropped in 2003). ---
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2015, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pledge-of-allegiance/713643/23 "2015-02-26T22:51:00Z")
I said the Pledge every day when I was an elementary school kid in the US, and I was a foreign national. I didn’t really think about what it meant. It was something we did automatically every morning. I think one kid, who was a Jehovah’s Witness, was excused, and everyone thought it was weird. ---
**Author:** ![vd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b19c9b/32.png) [@vd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vd)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2015, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pledge-of-allegiance/713643/24 "2015-02-26T23:03:08Z")
> [@Doc\_Dish](#): > > On my honour, I promise that I will do my best > To do my duty to God and to the Queen, > To help other people > And to keep the Scout Law > > P.S. We don’t have Boy Scouts in the UK, just Scouts. I said this as a scout leader in Canada, where I’m not a citizen. I figured it was left open to me to decide exactly what my duty to God and the Queen were. I gave it about as much internal weight as my duty to Thor and Ban Ki-moon. I’ve also signed something about defending the Constitution of the United States, but I seriously doubt it was the full Oath of Allegiance. The critical activity requiring that was my 3-hour-per-week job grading calculus homework for a University of California school. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2015, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pledge-of-allegiance/713643/25 "2015-02-26T23:44:15Z")
> [@BOOM](#): > > When were you a child, the 70s? > > I thought this thread was about this century. Maybe he was a child in the 70s, but I was a child in the 1960s. Hari Seldon, who posted a few posts ago, was a child in the 1950s. I didn’t see anything indicating that this thread was limited to the last 14 years. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2015, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pledge-of-allegiance/713643/26 "2015-02-26T23:54:41Z")
> [@sciurophobic](#): > > We said the Pledge of Allegiance every day in elementary school, and I still don’t know who Richard Stands is. You’ve never _seen_ him, but you know he’s invisible, with liberty and justice for all. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2015, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pledge-of-allegiance/713643/27 "2015-02-26T23:55:41Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > Interesting that you pledge alliance to a flag. Having a monarch makes a much better oath: _I, (Insert full name), do swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth, her heirs and successors, according to law. So help me God._ (The God bit is optional) I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America. And to the Republic, for which it stands. Emphasis added. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2015, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pledge-of-allegiance/713643/28 "2015-02-27T00:15:42Z")
I plead alignment to the flakes of the untitled snakes of a merry cow, and to the Republicans for which they scam, one nacho, underpants, invisible, with licorice and jugs of wine for owls. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pledge-of-allegiance/713643/29 "2015-02-28T03:35:39Z")
> [@Dr.Colossus](#): > > It seemed like a weird, obligatory thing to do as an adult. It seems even weirder to demand a child to recite it. The need to “pledge” one’s “allegiance” without even basic comprehension . . . strikes me as being rather unAmerican. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pledge-of-allegiance/713643/30 "2015-02-28T13:03:31Z")
> [@BOOM](#): > > When were you a child, the 70s? > > I thought this thread was about this century. I was a kid, in the 50s\*, when “under God” was added. It was no more meaningful to us than remembering, a few years later, that there were now two new states. \*That’s the 1950s, not the 2050s. ---
**Author:** ![Doug\_K](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5ac83/32.png) [@Doug\_K](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doug_K)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pledge-of-allegiance/713643/31 "2015-02-28T14:55:43Z")
> [@sciurophobic](#): > > We said the Pledge of Allegiance every day in elementary school, and I still don’t know who Richard Stands is. He’s one dalmatian. ---
**Author:** ![sciurophobic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@sciurophobic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sciurophobic)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pledge-of-allegiance/713643/32 "2015-02-28T15:02:55Z")
I’m sure many uber-patriots would be shocked to learn that the Pledge was written by an anti-capitalist socialist and that originally you were supposed to extend your arm out toward the flag in a way that would later be adopted by the you know whos. [Bellamy Salute](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellamy_salute) ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pledge-of-allegiance/713643/33 "2015-02-28T15:31:06Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > Interesting that you pledge alliance to a flag. Having a monarch makes a much better oath: _I, (Insert full name), do swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth, her heirs and successors, according to law. So help me God._ (The God bit is optional) The Oath of Allegiance (Judicial or Official Oath) is a promise to be loyal to the British monarch, and their heirs and successors, sworn by certain public servants in the United Kingdom, and **also by newly naturalised subjects in citizenship ceremonies.** > [@Doc\_Dish](#): > > On my honour, I promise that I will do my best > To do my duty to God and to the Queen, > To help other people > And to keep the Scout Law > > P.S. We don’t have Boy Scouts in the UK, just Scouts. Scouts _and Guides_ Scouts started to accept girls in the 90s, partly because their numbers were falling. Guides still remains an all female organisation. Guides make a similar promise and like scouts, many of them like to make it in unusual locations like at the top of the Jungfrau, on a roller coaster or down a cave ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pledge-of-allegiance/713643/34 "2015-02-28T17:16:21Z")
Two things not generally known about the Pledge: 1. It had become hide-bound tradition by the 1930s; in fact, when it started in 1892 it was part of a commemoration of Columbus Day. 2. Until the Nazi salute was widely known, the pledge salute was the same–right hand extended, upward, palm forward. After Hitler ’ s salute became wide known in the U.S., the right-hand - over - heart was substituted. In any case, the Pledge and flag salute were never sanctioned by statute–local, State, or federal. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2015, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pledge-of-allegiance/713643/35 "2015-02-28T17:30:05Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > Maybe he was a child in the 70s, but I was a child in the 1960s. Hari Seldon, who posted a few posts ago, was a child in the 1950s. I didn’t see anything indicating that this thread was limited to the last 14 years. I was a child in the '90s, and we said it in class every day up until I graduated in 2001. In fact, as a JROTC cadet, I said it _twice_ - once in homeroom and then again in JROTC class. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2015, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pledge-of-allegiance/713643/36 "2015-03-01T00:35:15Z")
By the way, you don’t “take” the Pledge, you just recite it. It’s not really promising anything. It’s just a statement of patriotism. Oh, and Beverly Cleary fans are surely familiar with the “dawnzer lee light?” ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2015, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pledge-of-allegiance/713643/37 "2015-03-01T01:42:03Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > By the way, you don’t “take” the Pledge, you just recite it. It’s not really promising anything. It’s just a statement of patriotism. > Oh, and Beverly Cleary fans are surely familiar with the “dawnzer lee light?” Sure. Like “The republic for Richard Sands” (Kermit Schafer) and “one naked individual” (Art Linkletter; before the words “under God” were added) ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2015, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pledge-of-allegiance/713643/38 "2015-03-01T02:20:01Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > Interesting that you pledge alliance to a flag. Having a monarch makes a much better oath: _I, (Insert full name), do swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth, her heirs and successors, according to law. So help me God._ (The God bit is optional) Well, I didn’t vote for her. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2015, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pledge-of-allegiance/713643/39 "2015-03-01T04:17:29Z")
OP, if it wouldn’t be giving away more identifying information than you wish to share, could you tell us of this place where recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance by all attendees is mandatory at municipal meetings? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2015, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pledge-of-allegiance/713643/40 "2015-03-01T04:28:37Z")
By the way, if you decline to participate in the reenactment of the Pledge of Allegiance, and are called out on it, you can always respond that you take pledges of allegiance very seriously. Under this rubric, it’s not appropriate to pledge allegiance to the same symbol and institution multiple times, unless you have renounced your most recent recitation of it. People who claim to have a problem with this are merely revealing how little respect THEY have for the Pledge. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pledge-of-allegiance/713643.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pledge-of-allegiance/713643.md?page=3)