# The Plot Against America on HBO (open spoilers as each ep airs) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 17, 2020, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-plot-against-america-on-hbo-open-spoilers-as-each-ep-airs/849666 "2020-03-17T18:16:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2020, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-plot-against-america-on-hbo-open-spoilers-as-each-ep-airs/849666/61 "2020-04-24T21:36:33Z")
For over 100 years NYC has had a program to send city kids to rural areas and suburbs. I recall hearing about fresh air kids 50 years ago. [The Fresh Air Fund - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fresh_Air_Fund) ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2020, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-plot-against-america-on-hbo-open-spoilers-as-each-ep-airs/849666/62 "2020-04-24T21:37:20Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > > [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > > > The VP was sworn in . But Congress decided to have an election in 1942 to get rid of him. > > A Democratic Congress decides to get rid of a Democratic President? As for this, yes, Burton Wheeler was a Democratic senator, but in the novel and miniseries, he was vice-president under the Republican Lindbergh, so I think it’s reasonable to assume that Wheeler switched to the Republican Party. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2020, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-plot-against-america-on-hbo-open-spoilers-as-each-ep-airs/849666/63 "2020-04-24T21:40:14Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > As for this, yes, Burton Wheeler was a Democratic senator, but in the novel and miniseries, he was vice-president under the Republican Lindbergh, so I think it’s reasonable to assume that Wheeler switched to the Republican Party. OK, good point, I was mixing IRL with the book/series. :smack: Then a Republican Congress gets rid of a Republican President? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2020, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-plot-against-america-on-hbo-open-spoilers-as-each-ep-airs/849666/64 "2020-04-24T21:43:10Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > > [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > > > Isn’t most of that (particularly the portrayal of Lindbergh as a Nazi sympathizer and appeaser) straight out of the novel (although I confess I have not read it)? And the review of the book from The New York Times says, “Lindbergh, in real life as in the novel, famously admired Hitler and even accepted a medal from Hitler’s government. He looked on the American Jews as a pretty suspicious group, all in all.” > > Yes, Lindberg, along with many other world leaders- admired Hitler \*at first. \*There was a lot to admire. Few knew how crazy and evil he was to start. So if you understand that the portrayal of Lindbergh was in the source novel, why do you say the show “villainized a great American”? And remember that the events start in 1940. The admiring quotes you have from Churchill, Chamberlain and Lloyd George are several years earlier than that. Got any admiring quotes from 1940 or later? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2020, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-plot-against-america-on-hbo-open-spoilers-as-each-ep-airs/849666/65 "2020-04-24T22:01:45Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > So if you understand that the portrayal of Lindbergh was in the source novel, why do you say the show “villainized a great American”? And remember that the events start in 1940. The admiring quotes you have from Churchill, Chamberlain and Lloyd George are several years earlier than that. Got any admiring quotes from 1940 or later? Yes, sure, the source novel villainized a great American also, so? No, got any admiring quotes from Lindy in 1940 or later? He did say the German AF had some very modern planes- in \*\*1938. \*\* ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2020, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-plot-against-america-on-hbo-open-spoilers-as-each-ep-airs/849666/66 "2020-04-24T22:07:11Z")
Presumably in the alternative universe of the novel and miniseries, yes, Lindbergh would have said admiring things about Hitler. According to the Wikipedia summary of the novel, his first act as president was “to sign a treaty with Nazi Germany and Adolf Hitler, promising that the United States will not interfere with German expansion in Europe (known as the ‘Iceland Understanding,’ after the place where it is signed), and with Imperial Japan, promising noninterference with Japanese expansion in Asia (known as the ‘Hawaii Understanding’).” ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2020, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-plot-against-america-on-hbo-open-spoilers-as-each-ep-airs/849666/67 "2020-04-24T22:09:45Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Presumably in the alternative universe of the novel and miniseries, yes, Lindbergh would have said admiring things about Hitler. According to the Wikipedia summary of the novel, his first act as president was “to sign a treaty with Nazi Germany and Adolf Hitler, promising that the United States will not interfere with German expansion in Europe (known as the ‘Iceland Understanding,’ after the place where it is signed), and with Imperial Japan, promising noninterference with Japanese expansion in Asia (known as the ‘Hawaii Understanding’).” Sure. My point was that “They villainized a great American. Lindy was no Nazi.”. Lindy was a real person. They made up shit about him for the book and series to make him look bad. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2020, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-plot-against-america-on-hbo-open-spoilers-as-each-ep-airs/849666/68 "2020-04-24T22:21:55Z")
Why did you even watch the show if you object to the essential premise of it? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2020, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-plot-against-america-on-hbo-open-spoilers-as-each-ep-airs/849666/69 "2020-04-24T22:24:35Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Why did you even watch the show if you object to the essential premise of it? I like alt hist. And the idea of a Neutral America was intriguing. They just did it poorly. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2020, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-plot-against-america-on-hbo-open-spoilers-as-each-ep-airs/849666/70 "2020-04-25T01:05:49Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Why did you even watch the show if you object to the essential premise of it? The “essential premise” of the show was that Lindy was running against FDR to stay out of the war, not persecute American Jews. The idea that Lindy was anti-semitic was grossly overstated for this series. ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2020, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-plot-against-america-on-hbo-open-spoilers-as-each-ep-airs/849666/71 "2020-04-25T14:02:09Z")
Well this thread took a turn… ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2020, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-plot-against-america-on-hbo-open-spoilers-as-each-ep-airs/849666/72 "2020-04-25T21:00:08Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > The VP was sworn in . But Congress decided to have an election in 1942 to get rid of him. Under the Act of 1866, Congress had no authority to call a special election. From my understanding at the end (which was so quick and deus ex machina-y), these are my beliefs: 1. The Congress was majority Republican. 2. Lindy and his VP Wheeler were Republicans. 3. Lindy disappears and Wheeler is running the government. 4. Wheeler declares martial law and orders the arrest of the Rabbi and others, declaring that they are part of a Jewish conspiracy to kill Lindy. 5. Wheeler also locks up the First Lady in Walter Reed Hospital under the lie that she is distraught over Lindy’s disappearance. 6. Some things happen??? 7. The First Lady is released and goes on radio. 8. She advised everyone to be cool, be nice to the Jews, and for Congress to have a special election. 9. Everyone is cool, nice to the Jews, and Congress holds a special election. My questions: a. Is Lindy dead? Is that said in the series? b. Is the statement by the Rabbi that he was blackmailed by the Nazis who kidnapped his famous son years prior just a lie? c. What are the “things” in #6 above? d. Where is Wheeler? Why is he not demanding that he is the President? e. Under what authority does Congress call a special election? ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2020, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-plot-against-america-on-hbo-open-spoilers-as-each-ep-airs/849666/73 "2020-04-25T21:01:46Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Some scenes were just a little out of place- did we really need to see the boy showing the other boy his mother’s underwear? Why? Because Philip Roth, that’s why! ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2020, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-plot-against-america-on-hbo-open-spoilers-as-each-ep-airs/849666/74 "2020-04-25T21:08:09Z")
To further add: It seems that Wheeler was absolutely correct and it was not mere propaganda because there WAS a Jewish conspiracy (along with a few other people who disliked what he was doing) to kill Lindy as seen in the series, and they succeeded in bringing down his plane. Not that such a thing was bad as Lindy (as portrayed in the series) was a real son-of-a-bitch and a Junior Hitler wanna be and they were justified in doing so. However, prior to the First Lady’s speech, the country seemed to be a-okay with Lindy doing what he did. They had no problem with the “voluntary” Jewish relocation. They had no problem turning a blind eye to violence at the Winchell rallies, and really didn’t care when Winchell was assassinated. The police from New Jersey to Kentucky were fine with the KKK killing Jews all along the route, even a single mother doing nothing but driving home from work. So what was the significance of the First Lady’s release and what she said? Why would these same people suddenly back her? I guess I’m just very confused. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2020, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-plot-against-america-on-hbo-open-spoilers-as-each-ep-airs/849666/75 "2020-04-25T21:42:13Z")
since it was a novel anything can happen whether or not it’s possible in real life. I read a novel where the South won the civil war because they were using AK47s and similar guns. ---
**Author:** ![Asuka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@Asuka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asuka)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2020, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-plot-against-america-on-hbo-open-spoilers-as-each-ep-airs/849666/76 "2020-04-25T21:58:30Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > To further add: It seems that Wheeler was absolutely correct and it was not mere propaganda because there WAS a Jewish conspiracy (along with a few other people who disliked what he was doing) to kill Lindy as seen in the series, and they succeeded in bringing down his plane. Not that such a thing was bad as Lindy (as portrayed in the series) was a real son-of-a-bitch and a Junior Hitler wanna be and they were justified in doing so. > > However, prior to the First Lady’s speech, the country seemed to be a-okay with Lindy doing what he did. They had no problem with the “voluntary” Jewish relocation. They had no problem turning a blind eye to violence at the Winchell rallies, and really didn’t care when Winchell was assassinated. > > The police from New Jersey to Kentucky were fine with the KKK killing Jews all along the route, even a single mother doing nothing but driving home from work. > > So what was the significance of the First Lady’s release and what she said? Why would these same people suddenly back her? > > I guess I’m just very confused. The whole conspiracy thing reminds me of how in the new Wolfenstein game it turns out the Jews actually have been hoarding advanced technology and wealth to themselves for centuries but it’s okay because apparently they were doing it for the good of mankind? Why would you make Jewish conspiracies real in a alternate universe where the Nazis are making those same claims? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2020, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-plot-against-america-on-hbo-open-spoilers-as-each-ep-airs/849666/77 "2020-04-25T22:21:18Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > To further add: It seems that Wheeler was absolutely correct and it was not mere propaganda because there WAS a Jewish conspiracy (along with a few other people who disliked what he was doing) to kill Lindy as seen in the series, and they succeeded in bringing down his plane. Not really; Alvin was recruited by a group of Brits and Canadians to participate in their activities. I don’t think we’re told whether they were Jewish, Christian or whatever, but don’t think you can say there “WAS a Jewish conspiracy”. And remember that Alvin really didn’t know what they were up to. Plus the conspirators only acted _after_ the pogroms and forced relocations. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2020, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-plot-against-america-on-hbo-open-spoilers-as-each-ep-airs/849666/78 "2020-04-25T22:27:25Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > since it was a novel anything can happen whether or not it’s possible in real life. I read a novel where the South won the civil war because they were using AK47s and similar guns. Disagree. That novel (I read it as well) had time travellers bringing AK-47s to Robert E. Lee in 1864. This alt history had no supernatural elements. I think to be believable, the story can set up what it wants, but has to follow its own internal rules. In a world where time travel is possible, then we suspend disbelief and go with the South having automatic weapons. In a world where all that happens is that Lindy throws his hat in the ring in the 1940 Presidential Election\*, we cannot assume that human nature changes or that people just stop whatever they were doing prior, because, reasons. \*or possibly kidnap his infant son ten years earlier and blackmail him; still not sure if that is true or not > [@Asuka](#): > > The whole conspiracy thing reminds me of how in the new Wolfenstein game it turns out the Jews actually have been hoarding advanced technology and wealth to themselves for centuries but it’s okay because apparently they were doing it for the good of mankind? > > Why would you make Jewish conspiracies real in a alternate universe where the Nazis are making those same claims? This conspiracy was more like revolutionary guerilla warfare than an evil “let’s control the world’s money” type of Jewish conspiracy. They saw some pretty severe civil rights abuses and rebelled against it; all justified IMHO, and I don’t fault the story for that. Where I have the disconnect is that the people (in this alt history) supported these civil rights abuses, found out that the Jews were fighting back against those same people by assassinating their leader, then THEY fought back against the Jews, then something, and then decided to be fully honorable and decent to Jews after that. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2020, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-plot-against-america-on-hbo-open-spoilers-as-each-ep-airs/849666/79 "2020-08-05T18:27:39Z")
I finished the miniseries last night. I was impressed overall, but thought the last episode was rushed and implausible. The First Lady’s radio speech just wouldn’t have had such a huge impact on the contemporary political scene. I also didn’t get the point of Herman’s and Alvin’s fistfight after dinner. But a great cast, impressive production values, good set design (the Lindbergh rally at which the rabbi spoke, and the White House dinner for von Ribbentrop, were particularly good), and the costumes, city streets and old cars were all well done. The show was very good at creating a growing sense of foreboding as things unravel for the Levin family and the country itself. Lots of echoes of the Age of Trump. I was particularly impressed by the child actor who played Seldon, the nerdy little chess-loving neighborhood kid. He really was great. The scenes where Bess Levin is trying to comfort him by phone, when he was sure his mom was dead, were just heartbreaking. A Jewish friend told me what Evelyn had said in Yiddish to Lindbergh’s Secretary of the Interior (and raging anti-Semite) Henry Ford when he insulted her and the rabbi at the White House dinner - it was “Go shit in the ocean,” which means “Go away, I don’t care what you think.” It was a nice touch to show the two major campaigns’ posters at the 1942 Newark polling site near the end: the Democrats, FDR and Truman, two years before they actually ran together in our timeline, and “Ford / Taft,” presumably Henry Ford and Robert A. Taft, the “Mr. Republican” of the U.S. Senate at the time. There’s an interesting HBO podcast about the show, with NPR guy Peter Sagal interviewing the show’s co-creator, _The Wire_’s David Simon. Lots of good behind-the-scenes stuff. > [@Quimby](#): > > The book unequivocally says FDR won. Shortly after Pearl Harbor is attacked and the timeline essentially rights itself. I liked the show ending even if it was unsatisfying on a dramatic level to not get closure. The show is meant to be a warning and giving it a happy ending would have rung false and a bad ending would have been too much so they kept it vague… Agreed. > [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I saw the final episode last night. I don’t think it was clear if the vote tampering (burning ballots, removing a voting machine) was for or against FDR. > > BTW, when the Rabbi was meeting with the synagogue leaders, their expressions seemed to suggest they didn’t believe the crazy story he was telling them about Lindbergh. And I assume the meeting was to fire him as rabbi of that synagogue. And the scenes of the aftermath of the anti-semitic riots reminded me of Kristallnacht, which I suppose was not a coincidence. I guess I interpreted it as an anti-FDR move, as Newark was heavily Democratic at the time, but it was certainly ambiguous. Agreed as to everything else. > [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > … Burton Wheeler was a Democratic senator, but in the novel and miniseries, he was vice-president under the Republican Lindbergh, so I think it’s reasonable to assume that Wheeler switched to the Republican Party. Wheeler was a Dem, but pretty ornery and not always a party-line guy. He clashed with FDR over Court-packing and was definitely an isolationist. Not too farfetched that he would throw in his lot with Lindbergh (Walter Winchell, in one of his radio broadcasts in the show, even referred to him as a “Democratic turncoat” or somesuch). For more: [Burton K. Wheeler - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burton_K._Wheeler) > [@UltraVires](#): > > Under the Act of 1866, Congress had no authority to call a special election… Nitpick: 1886. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2020, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-plot-against-america-on-hbo-open-spoilers-as-each-ep-airs/849666/80 "2020-08-05T18:47:19Z")
And I should’ve mentioned, Wheeler ran for VP with a Republican presidential candidate once before (in 1924, with Robert La Follette), so it wouldn’t have been too far out of character for him to do it again. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-plot-against-america-on-hbo-open-spoilers-as-each-ep-airs/849666.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-plot-against-america-on-hbo-open-spoilers-as-each-ep-airs/849666.md?page=5)