# "The Polar Express" sends a bad message to children (spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 21, 2004, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-polar-express-sends-a-bad-message-to-children-spoilers/275894 "2004-11-21T01:34:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2004, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-polar-express-sends-a-bad-message-to-children-spoilers/275894/41 "2004-11-21T21:02:55Z")
> [@Larry Mudd](#): > > Ayuh. Faith is poisonous stuff, and everything it touches turns _nasty._ I don’t claim to have any earthly idea what point Jesus was really trying to get across. My guess is the heart of the message has been lost in the mists of time, or exaggerated beyond anything he would have recognized, except for a few core principles espoused by virtually every faith, and which boil down pretty much to common sense. But I do agree with you about faith. What would happen if we reared all our children without it? I’m not convinced the result would be bad at all. ---
**Author:** ![Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/aeb1de/32.png) [@Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kel_Varnsen_Latex_Division)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2004, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-polar-express-sends-a-bad-message-to-children-spoilers/275894/42 "2004-11-21T22:26:03Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > There are platitudes throughout about how important it is to “believe.” At one point the Tom Hanks conductor character says, “Seeing is believing, but sometimes the things that are the most real are the things you _can’t_ see.” > > WTF, no they aren’t. What is that even supposed to _mean_. Can you see atoms? Are they real? Are you saying that we can see all things that are real? WTF? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2004, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-polar-express-sends-a-bad-message-to-children-spoilers/275894/43 "2004-11-21T23:22:15Z")
**KVLD:** \*Can you see atoms? \* Yes Virginia, atoms [can be seen](http://www-outreach.phy.cam.ac.uk/paw2004/exhibitor/microscope_facility.htm). (I agree, though, that this doesn’t validate a claim that all real things are visible, but I don’t think that’s really the claim that **DtC** was making.) ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2004, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-polar-express-sends-a-bad-message-to-children-spoilers/275894/44 "2004-11-21T23:25:22Z")
Atoms? Pshaw, it’s a hoax! Buzz Aldrin is mixed up in this, I’m sure of it! ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2004, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-polar-express-sends-a-bad-message-to-children-spoilers/275894/45 "2004-11-21T23:31:59Z")
Hear hear to the OP. If I ever introduce the idea of Santa Clause to my kids, it will be a test to see how long it takes for them to question it 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-polar-express-sends-a-bad-message-to-children-spoilers/275894/46 "2004-11-22T00:19:52Z")
> [@Kel Varnsen - Latex Division](#): > > Can you see atoms? Are they real? Are you saying that we can see all things that are real? WTF? Atoms can be verified through inference of observable and repeatable tests. Atomic theory conforms to Pepperian standards of falsifiability. Atoms are not taken on anyone’s word nor are simply “believed” in. Not all of what can be verified though empirical method literally has to be “seen.” Predictions can be made about phenomena which will produce specific observable events. There are no such standards for “magic” or for “spirit” or for “God.” That’s not to say that people can’t find convincing reasons within _themselves_ to believe in those things or that believing in them is bad or that faith can’t be good. But it also has to be acknowledged that there are very good reasons to _doubt_, that doubt is good and that you _shouldn’t_ believe things that make no sense to you, that haven’t been proven, and that _seem_ to be false without doing a lot of critical thinking about it. The discouragement of doubt is a sin against humanity. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-polar-express-sends-a-bad-message-to-children-spoilers/275894/47 "2004-11-22T00:21:13Z")
P **o** pperian. ---
**Author:** ![gfloyd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d2c977/32.png) [@gfloyd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gfloyd)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-polar-express-sends-a-bad-message-to-children-spoilers/275894/48 "2004-11-22T02:51:20Z")
What is wrong with you people? It is a kid’s movie, not some sort of McCarthy-era, conform or be labled a red piece of propaganda. Wonder, imagaination and yes, believing in Santa Claus or Fred the make-believe puppy that lives under your bed are all part of being a kid. This movie (which I haven’t seen, but I’ve read the book many a time) says it is okay to believe for a little longer, to be different and not succome to the banality of modern life. And for all the people that are too old and gray to believe in Santa, this movie and others like it provide an escape for a while, into a safer world, to remember a time when believing in Santa was the only worry, not paying the mortgage, taking the kids to daycare and chosing which politican will screw you over the least. And that bit about believing in things you can’t see, that’s about things like love and friendship, things that I can’t see, not in actaulity. I don’t see some ethereal silken rope that binds my friends together, but I sure as hell believe that they would die for each other. And that is something that I would like for everyone to believe in. There are things which can not be seen which really do exist, and I’m not talking about atoms. ---
**Author:** ![laurelann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/5daacb/32.png) [@laurelann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/laurelann)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-polar-express-sends-a-bad-message-to-children-spoilers/275894/49 "2004-11-22T02:54:35Z")
Are you people kidding me? There’s this thing, its called an imagination. Now, I’m not sure if any of you people posess this quality, but I sure as Hell will want my children to. I read this book when I was in Elementary school, as has everyone I’ve talked to from my age bracket. And yes, I can see it being considered an “epic” book from childhood, as it is beautifully done, and almost everyone I know knows of this book, and remembers it, even from 1992, when they were eight. I admit that I believed in Santa far longer than anyone else I know, but there is nothing morally wrong with me, in fact, I see myself as a moral and realistic person. What the Hell did your parents tell you about Santa to force you to believe that if a child believes in such a figure they will be permanantly scarred? I spent many a day on the playground back home pretending to be searching for a fabled treasure, but I don’t have some child-like, naive view of life (though sometimes, I wish that I did). If you don’t realize this, regardless of what children are raised to believe in the case of Santa, all children do eventually come to the conclusion that he is an imaginary figure. What’s the difference between reading (or watching, as the case may be) about an imaginary figure, such as Santa Claus, and reading a science fiction or fantasy novel? Because clearly, those should be banned as well. What is the difference between believing in true love or friendship and believing in the magic of Christmas? Maybe I have a skewed view of this, as I am still relatively young, and probably haven’t had as much disappointment or sadness or pain in my life to callous my imagination. Maybe some of you should go back and read something that allowed your imagination to flourish when you were younger, and you will regain the wonderous way you looked at the world a long time ago. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-polar-express-sends-a-bad-message-to-children-spoilers/275894/50 "2004-11-22T03:00:19Z")
Once again, my problem is not with “believing” but in trying to pathologize doubt. ---
**Author:** ![ParentalAdvisory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@ParentalAdvisory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParentalAdvisory)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-polar-express-sends-a-bad-message-to-children-spoilers/275894/51 "2004-11-22T03:17:17Z")
The OP has nothing to do with imagination. For example. You’re born into the Red Faith system. From childhood, and into your adult life, you’ve been taught that the all the colors you see are to be considered red. All evidence has been disregarded in the Red Faith system to say otherwise. Then you move out into the real world. You then study, the color wheel. You’ve been subjected to primary, secondary, and tertiary colors. Grayscales, gradients, and all that fun stuff. You then take this evidence back to the Red Faith leaders. You are then mocked by the Red Faith as, a _Doubter_. You are basically being told that your intellect and evidence don’t matter and that you _don’t believe_. And that you MUST believe or you are bad. You’re being told that free thinking is not allowed, no matter what any pure evidence suggests. This is the problem the OP, and many others have with the message of the scene. Sorry if my analogy was corny. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-polar-express-sends-a-bad-message-to-children-spoilers/275894/52 "2004-11-22T03:25:29Z")
> [@](#): > > “The Polar Express” sends a bad message to children (spoilers) Reply to Thread I have to admit I’m of two minds over the OP (great question btw DtC…this is the part of you I love). On the one hand I’m completely in agreement with the OP’s sentiment that critical thinking is vital to a person and should be encouraged (I’ve often said that Demon Haunted World should be a primer for High School kids). On the other hand we are talking about children here…and IMO childrens imagination should be encouraged and allowed to thrive. The translation from childhood to early adulthood is when a child starts to look at his/her world in a more critical fashion…and its here where such critical thinking should be encouraged. Of course, this is the very crux of the problem with the movie, as its at this point that the child in it is brought back to the dark side. 🙂 However I think that in the end the movie was fantasy and won’t actually send the wrong message to children…they will take it for what it really is. A movie. As it turns out I saw this movie with my wife and kids this weekend. My 14 year old for instance enjoyed the movie but it did nothing to chance his own critical outlook. My 8 year old also was unmoved in her stance on the existance of Santa Clause…though again she very much enjoyed the movie. And my 4 year old son loved the movie and continues to dream about the magic of Christmas…and I’m leaving him in that belief. Soon enough will be the time critical thinking on his part. (The baby didn’t seem impressed with the movie FWIW…she slept through it :)). In the end its not really up to movies to teach our children critical thinking…its up to us as parents, and perhaps to a lesser degree our schools (who don’t seem to do much better than this movie IMHO of equiping our children with a bologna detection kit). The only function of a movie is to entertain us…and this movie definitely does that well IMO. -XT ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-polar-express-sends-a-bad-message-to-children-spoilers/275894/53 "2004-11-22T04:50:58Z")
Diogenes: 1. Buy the book and revel in the pictures. Skip the words if it makes you feel better. 2. You are old enough and responsible enough to know that you can’t drive children while in the proper condition to enjoy that movie, especially in 3D, so shame on you for wasting your money. 3. Kindly quit sucking the fun out of everything by thinking about it too much. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-polar-express-sends-a-bad-message-to-children-spoilers/275894/54 "2004-11-22T05:03:07Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > You are old enough and responsible enough to know that you can’t drive children while in the proper condition to enjoy that movie, especially in 3D, so shame on you for wasting your money. True, too true. The whole time I was watching it I kept wishing that I had been able to…prepare…appropriately for the experience. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-polar-express-sends-a-bad-message-to-children-spoilers/275894/55 "2004-11-22T06:15:35Z")
And here I thought the movie bit because it’s based on a book with no real conflict and some of the most borrowed “imagination” ever. Oh well. Live and learn. ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-polar-express-sends-a-bad-message-to-children-spoilers/275894/56 "2004-11-22T08:34:44Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > The election results earlier this month clearly show that the American Public has difficulty understanding how to think critically. Right on the mark (unfortunately). :eek: I say this as a rabidly anti-Bush, bleeding-heart college liberal: Can we talk about _anything_ without finding an opportunity to lambast the majority of Americans for holding different beliefs than us? Come on, man. Grow up. ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-polar-express-sends-a-bad-message-to-children-spoilers/275894/57 "2004-11-22T08:49:52Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > True, too true. The whole time I was watching it I kept wishing that I had been able to…prepare…appropriately for the experience. What a great idea. Oddly enough, I never thought of it. Must be losing my edge. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-polar-express-sends-a-bad-message-to-children-spoilers/275894/58 "2004-11-22T10:55:53Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > **Liberal:** _Generally, it isn’t even possible for children to think rationally before they’re nine years old._ > > Golly, **Lib** , you must know some odd kids. Most of the three- to eight-year-olds I know are quite capable of thinking rationally, although they certainly don’t do so **consistently**. But they’re well able to understand simple rational explanations of phenomena, such as “Santa couldn’t possibly visit every house on Christmas Eve because nothing can fly fast enough for that”. Some kids I know have even figured out such explanations for themselves. Your quaint anecdotal experience notwithstanding — and despite your ignoring my “generally” qualifier — it is now known that the frontal lobe development in humans is retarded until the end of adolescence. At around the age of puberty, neural connections are being severed and established at a rate of tens of thousands per second. (That’s what makes boys gangly; their brains can’t keep up with the growth of their bodies.) The problem is that their emotional maturity lags so far behind their ability to think rationally that they have difficulty putting into practice what little rational ability they have. Their behavior is impulsive, not rational. Sources: [http://www.prevention.com/article/0,5778,s1-6-73-218-3699-1,00.html](http://www.prevention.com/article/0,5778,s1-6-73-218-3699-1,00.html) [http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/teenbrain.cfm](http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/teenbrain.cfm) [http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neuro/neuro04/web1/epowell.html](http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neuro/neuro04/web1/epowell.html) [http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/teenbrain/work/adolescent.html](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/teenbrain/work/adolescent.html) [http://www.waldorflibrary.org/Articles/Adolesce2.pdf](http://www.waldorflibrary.org/Articles/Adolesce2.pdf) > **[emo2.pdf](https://snl.salk.edu/~fellous/pubs/emo2.pdf)** > > 33.28 KB > [@](#): > > **Liberal:** _It is difficult enough to rear children without someone advocating that they become rebellious and question everything. They don’t grock the real dangers of the world, the ulterior motives of so many people, or even their own immortality, and so it is important that they trust their parents and obey them._ > > I don’t think that **Dio** is advocating that children shouldn’t trust or obey their parents. As he said, he’s just bothered by the presentation of a child’s skepticism or doubt as something to be mocked and suppressed. It is remarkable that you can read Dio’s mind, but not mine. I did not address my post to Dio. It is entirely possible, is it not, that I may make a brand new point unrelated to a point already made. > [@](#): > > **Liberal:** \*They cannot even comprehend the nuances of healthy skepticism. \* > > Sure they can. One of my friends is a great exaggerator and would often make silly or extravagant responses to his toddler son’s questions, just for fun. The boy loved it, and very soon learned to play the game of figuring out whether Daddy was giving a straight answer or just teasing. (His standard skeptical inquiry about an improbable-sounding statement—“Weeeally?”—is still a catchphrase in our circle. :)) > > I agree that it would be insane and horribly cruel to demand that a child figure out how to deal with **everything** s/he encounters in the world purely through the exercise of his/her own rational inquiry. As I said, their rationalism just isn’t consistent enough for that, nor do they have adequate maturity or experience or a host of other necessary things. > > But there’s certainly nothing wrong with encouraging them to develop the **beginnings** of critical thinking. And all **DtC** is saying here is that we shouldn’t absolutely squelch or mock their own attempts at it. I read the OP, and that isn’t “all” that Dio said. Your friend’s son’s “weeeally” is not skepticism; it is wonderment. ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-polar-express-sends-a-bad-message-to-children-spoilers/275894/59 "2004-11-22T13:47:45Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > **dangermom** : > I just wish that kids’ movies would celebrate a life of the mind once in a while. I wish they would embrace the _exhileration_ of breaking free from false belief systems. I wish they would _encourage_ investigation, self-examination and real world wonder. I think we are backsliding a bit. Look at the cartoon _Scooby-doo_, it used to be about a group of investigators that showed the world that it was always somebody in a mask, now all the cartoons and the two movies have cast that aside for real supernatural phenomenon. Sad. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-polar-express-sends-a-bad-message-to-children-spoilers/275894/60 "2004-11-22T15:55:57Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Once again, my problem is not with “believing” but in trying to pathologize doubt. I hear THAT, **DtC**. But apparently very few others do. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-polar-express-sends-a-bad-message-to-children-spoilers/275894.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-polar-express-sends-a-bad-message-to-children-spoilers/275894.md?page=4)