# The Police **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [May 27, 2005, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-police/305761 "2005-05-27T14:39:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![nickk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/838e76/32.png) [@nickk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nickk)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2005, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-police/305761/1 "2005-05-27T14:39:15Z")
As I know you are rarely wrong however I believe that you may be mistaken in your answer to: Could you tell me more about the words fuzz, pigs, and cops and how they pertain to police? --Mike Paproski Most references to the police as pigs or coppers can be accredited to cockney rhyming slang. Lamb Chop - Cop Grass Hopper - Copper Bottles and Stoppers - Coppers Lamb/Pork Chop - Cop/Pig Pork Pies - Lies/Pig John Hop - Cop Ducks n’ Geese - F’in Police The early police also had copper buttons on there uniforms perhaps another reference to copper?!? The police were originally dubbed Peelers after Robert Peel which later became Bobbies (Bob being short for Robert) It can also be said that that Pig comes from Squeeler to Peeler. As for Fuzz - I have no idea on the origin so will not comment. Nick ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2005, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-police/305761/2 "2005-05-28T13:13:08Z")
Before this gets moved to the right forum, let me add the [link to Dex’s Staff Report](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mcop.html) so people can follow along. > [@nickk](#): > > Lamb Chop - Cop > Grass Hopper - Copper > Bottles and Stoppers - Coppers > Lamb/Pork Chop - Cop/Pig > Pork Pies - Lies/Pig > John Hop - Cop > Ducks n’ Geese - F’in Police This is exactly backward. The rhyming slang wouldn’t be the _source_ of such terms but humorous commentary on _already existing_ terms. IOW, The words cop and pig already had to be in common use before the slang could come about. > [@](#): > > The early police also had copper buttons on there uniforms perhaps another reference to copper?!? Didn’t you read the report at all? > [@](#): > > Similarly, the word did not arise because police uniforms in New York (or London or wherever) had copper buttons, copper badges, or anything of the sort. > [@nickk](#): > > The police were originally dubbed Peelers after Robert Peel which later became Bobbies (Bob being short for Robert) Yes, Dex says this in his second paragraph. > [@](#): > > It can also be said that that Pig comes from Squeeler to Peeler. It can? By whom? Using what evidence? Welcome to the Boards, Nick, but if you want to have a good time here you’ll need to remember to read the column you’re commenting on as well as supplying actual evidence and not silly guesses for what you have to say. ---
**Author:** ![PussyCow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/22d042/32.png) [@PussyCow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PussyCow)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-police/305761/3 "2005-06-03T15:21:53Z")
As a matter of fact, when I was a kid a cop came to talk to us at our school. He said the term cop _did_ come from the copper of the their badge. And it was derogatory. Now I’m not claiming this cop is an expert in etymology, but although Dex says this is not the case, he does not say how he knows it’s not the case. So it cannot be dismissed as a possibility. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-police/305761/4 "2005-06-03T17:53:20Z")
> [@PussyCow](#): > > As a matter of fact, when I was a kid a cop came to talk to us at our school. He said the term cop _did_ come from the copper of the their badge. And it was derogatory. Now I’m not claiming this cop is an expert in etymology, but although > Dex says this is not the case, he does not say how he knows it’s not the case. So it cannot be dismissed as a possibility. Well, just for starters, Dex said > [@](#): > > Let’s start with cop. Cop the noun is almost certainly a shortening of copper, which in turn derives from cop the verb. The London police were called bobbies, after Sir Robert Peel who advocated the creation of the Metropolitan Police Force in 1828. Copper as slang for policeman is first found in print in 1846, according to the Oxford English Dictionary. The most likely explanation is that it comes from the verb “to cop” meaning to seize, capture, or snatch, dating from just over a century earlier (1704). Your school visitor was just repeating what he had heard. Dex’s opinions are more linguistically sound. Maybe you could research whether English police officers had copper badges before 1846. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-police/305761/5 "2005-06-03T17:55:40Z")
> [@PussyCow](#): > > So it cannot be dismissed as a possibility. Sure it can. When somebody says something known to be wrong it doesn’t in any way make it a possibility that it’s right. ---
**Author:** ![dembrees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecd19e/32.png) [@dembrees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dembrees)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2005, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-police/305761/6 "2005-06-04T20:29:02Z")
I’ve always heard that the origin of “the fuzz” as a nickname for the police came from the expression “they stick to you like fuzz.” ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2005, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-police/305761/7 "2005-06-04T22:27:22Z")
> [@dembrees](#): > > I’ve always heard that the origin of “the fuzz” as a nickname for the police came from the expression “they stick to you like fuzz.” You hear things like that all the time. But nothing exists to back it up. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2005, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-police/305761/8 "2005-06-05T07:01:59Z")
A minor nitpick - Dex translated the French term _gens d’arme_ as “people with weaponry.” Wouldn’t “men-at-arms” be a better rendering? ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2005, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-police/305761/9 "2005-06-05T11:53:33Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > A minor nitpick - Dex translated the French term _gens d’arme_ as “people with weaponry.” Wouldn’t “men-at-arms” be a better rendering? “Men-at-arms” is the conventional translation, but “people with weaponry” is more literal and unambiguous. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2005, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-police/305761/10 "2005-06-05T13:29:34Z")
I was always always worried about such terms. For example, does the phrase “the missing arms of Venus” refer to the famous statue? …or to a science fiction story involving stolen weaponry from the planet? Eschew ambiguity. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2005, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-police/305761/11 "2005-06-05T15:29:53Z")
> [@C K Dexter Haven](#): > > I was always always worried about such terms. For example, does the phrase “the missing arms of Venus” refer to the famous statue? …or to a science fiction story involving stolen weaponry from the planet? > > Eschew ambiguity. I can’t believe both Roger Zelazny _and_ Harlan Ellison missed this one. I also don’t see how “men-at-arms” is in any way ambiguous. Sure, it can be when broken into its componant words - “men” and “arms” - but a phrase is more than the sum of its parts. To use a rather odious example, the term anti-semite is often misinterperated as being ambiguous as well (“aren’t Arabs semites too?”); this is obviously incorrect. No, “men-at-arms” can have but one meaning - professional soldiers of common descent who serve as members of a feudal household. Warriors who are one step below knights. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-police/305761/12 "2005-06-06T00:16:59Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > No, “men-at-arms” can have but one meaning - professional soldiers of common descent who serve as members of a feudal household. Warriors who are one step below knights. It depends on the period. It can mean knights fighting as infantry. ---
**Author:** ![Seifer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3da27b/32.png) [@Seifer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Seifer)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-police/305761/13 "2005-06-06T09:27:21Z")
Hello teaming millions! Just thought i’d add that my great grand mother (not a great sorce I know) told me that the work copper comes from the copper looking badges that old english police used to wear. I don’t know how true this is but I though i’d flot the idea out there and see what the wise millions think. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-police/305761/14 "2005-06-06T22:36:39Z")
Most etymologists discount this. THe story is told about too many different cities, with too many different uniforms, and most of them (when investigated) didn’t use copper. Your grandmother’s take is interesting, “copper-looking” rather than “copper,” but still, the word “copper” predates the traditional uniforms. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2005, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-police/305761/15 "2005-06-07T01:31:39Z")
> [@Dex](#): > > The most likely explanation is that it comes from the verb “to cop” meaning to seize, capture, or snatch, dating from just over a century earlier An additional point in favour of **Dex’s** explanation is that at common law, the constable or citizen who wanted to arrest a wrong-doer had to make actual physical contact with them, to control their movements. (“arrest” being derived from French “arrêter” - _“Empêcher d’avancer, faire rester en place” - Petit Larousse_). The Supreme Court of Canada re-affirmed the traditional common law requirement for an arrest in the recent case of [R. v. Asante-Mensah](http://www.lexum.umontreal.ca/csc-scc/en/pub/2003/vol2/html/2003scr2_0003.html), at para. 42: > [@](#): > > In _R. v. Whitfield_, [1970] S.C.R. 46, this Court adopted, for the purposes of the _Criminal Code_, the following common law definition of the act of arrest, per Judson J., at p. 48: > Arrest consists of the actual seizure or touching of a person’s body with a view to his detention. The mere pronouncing of words of arrest is not an arrest, unless the person sought to be arrested submits to the process and goes with the arresting officer. This point was of some significance in cases where an accused was charged with resisting arrest - mere words of command were not a valid arrest at common law. Thus, using the verb “cop” in the sense of “seize, capture or snatch” indicates that the constable or citizen had met the legal requirement for a valid arrest, because they had actually made physical contact with the wrong-doer and tried to restrain him. A “copper” is thus someone who is in the business of making arrests. And, the verb “to cop” survives in modern Canadian slang, at least - the phrase “to cop a feel” used by adolescents - is that phrase used in the U.S.? ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2005, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-police/305761/16 "2005-06-07T12:24:50Z")
Yep, that phrase is used in the US. I didn’t want to include it in my list, perhaps I shoulda. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2005, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-police/305761/17 "2005-06-07T12:35:51Z")
> [@C K Dexter Haven](#): > > Yep, that phrase is used in the US. I didn’t want to include it in my list, perhaps I shoulda. It’s a common phrase in Britain too, although I’ve no idea if it’s a transatlantic import. There’s also “_To cop off with…_”, of which I’d be intrigued to know the etymology 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2005, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-police/305761/18 "2005-06-07T14:58:49Z")
> [@Northern Piper](#): > > And, the verb “to cop” survives in modern Canadian slang, at least - the phrase “to cop a feel” used by adolescents - is that phrase used in the U.S.? There are also the phrases “cop out” and “cop a plea,” both derived from the sense of “cop” as “take.” [http://www.word-detective.com/102603.html#copaplea](http://www.word-detective.com/102603.html#copaplea) > [@](#): > > Meanwhile, back at your question, the slang term “cop out” was popularized in the 1960s and used as both a noun and a verb, especially in bad TV movies about hippies (“Hey man, joining the FBI is a cop out!”). But the first use of “cop out” seems to have come in the 1940s as a development of the “seize or take” sense of “cop.” To “cop out” meant to confess and accept (“cop”) a deal with the police. Since most such deals involve entering a guilty plea to legal charges, “copping out” in this sense is also known as “copping a plea.” But the important point is that the “cop” involved in “cop out” is a verb meaning “to take,” and not the police sort of “cop,” although the two share a common source. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2005, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-police/305761/19 "2005-06-07T16:07:37Z")
And don’t forget, “It’s a fair cop,” or a valid arrest. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2005, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-police/305761/20 "2005-06-08T08:03:14Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > And don’t forget, “It’s a fair cop,” or a valid arrest. That’s already in the report. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-police/305761.md?page=2)