# The Politics of "Avatar" **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 19, 2010, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-politics-of-avatar/525541 "2010-01-19T08:26:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-politics-of-avatar/525541/61 "2010-01-20T19:16:59Z")
> [@Johnny\_Angel](#): > > I didn’t find the message-mongering nearly as cringingly bad as that of Ferngully, but I’m sure we got a look at what was really at stake for the humans. Yes, yes, corporate greed, the need to have something impressive to put on a quarterly report, ect. But at the end of the film we hear “They went back to their dying world.” Woah, hold on there. On the one hand, this may buy them out of the obvious problem with the ending (they’re just going to come back with bigger guns, claiming to have been provoked), but it opens up the possibility that the humans might have had a good reason to need this precious material with the stupid name. How does that buy them out of the obvious problem? I _ **would’ve** _ been willing to accept that folks back on Earth have for some reason put the kibosh on going in with bigger guns; I wouldn’t have even called it a plot hole despite the lack of an explanation. But if the alternative is Going Back To Their Dying World, then we _ **will** _ cue up the training montage and make like ROCKY II for a rematch. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Angel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d26b3c/32.png) [@Johnny\_Angel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Angel)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-politics-of-avatar/525541/62 "2010-01-20T19:24:53Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > How does that buy them out of the obvious problem? I _ **would’ve** _ been willing to accept that folks back on Earth have for some reason put the kibosh on going in with bigger guns; I wouldn’t have even called it a plot hole despite the lack of an explanation. But if the alternative is Going Back To Their Dying World, then we _ **will** _ cue up the training montage and make like ROCKY II for a rematch. I didn’t see any point in mentioning it for the first time unless we were supposed to get the idea that they couldn’t return, though being more specific about this would have helped. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-politics-of-avatar/525541/63 "2010-01-20T19:26:34Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > Eh, one can oppose US involvement with the Vietnam War and still roll one’s eyes at the whole black-and-white EEEEEVIL KKORPORATIONS vs. virtuous, upright natives depiction of the whole thing. The problem with that is that situations like this really ARE black-and-white. The Na’vi are the natives of that world; the corporation wants their minerals. If the Na’vi aren’t interested in moving, tough; it’s not the corporations planet. How would you feel if a bunch of weird foreigners showed up and wanted to destroy your town to dig an open pit mine? And when they couldn’t come up with anything you wanted in exchange, used force? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-politics-of-avatar/525541/64 "2010-01-20T19:28:37Z")
Heck, I’d like to see humans learning from the experience, including realizing that maybe these USB ponytails are pretty damn useful. In the sequel, the humans will return with more advanced battlesuits with genetically- and surgically-altered humans mentally plugged into them directly, in a manner analogous to how the Na’vi uplink to the various flora and fauna (and indeed how humans link to the avatars). Then it’s clobbering time… If another preachy message is needed, make it something about how humans have mastered machines but lost their souls, or some such crap. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-politics-of-avatar/525541/65 "2010-01-20T19:38:59Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Then it’s clobbering time… If another preachy message is needed, make it something about how humans have mastered machines but lost their souls, or some such crap. “Evil wins” is depressing, and not likely to draw as well at the box office. If people want to see evil winning they only need to check the news or read some history. ---
**Author:** ![Reepicheep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ed655f/32.png) [@Reepicheep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reepicheep)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-politics-of-avatar/525541/66 "2010-01-20T19:40:07Z")
Was there any time that RDA told the Na’vi they wanted UnObtanium? I heard a lot about trying to find something that the “natives wanted”, roads being the one thing I remember. However in all the talk about negotiations I never heard about telling them why the sky people were there. I know, I know, it would have ruined Jake’s big betrayal scene. However dealing with a sentient planet/Deity, or native people, by telling what one wants seems much more productive then leaving them ignorant then bombing/blowing up the trees to get it. Now to answer the OP question, I ignored most of the “message” of the film, because I thought it was stupid. I’m tired of evil corporations, good scientists, evil military except for a few who join the hero, and noble natives. I thought Lawrence of Arabia did the story better. However it was well worth the $18.00 to see it on an IMAX in 3D. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-politics-of-avatar/525541/67 "2010-01-20T19:41:29Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > “Evil wins” is depressing, and not likely to draw as well at the box office. Well, evil was winning at the end of _Empire Strikes Back_ and it’s my understanding that this is widely considered the best in the series. Save the ultimate Ewokkian victory for the third film. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-politics-of-avatar/525541/68 "2010-01-20T19:42:04Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > It’s not reaching to figure the corporation _can_ exterminate the Na’vi, when we see them _trying_ to exterminate the Na’vi. Again, did you see the same movie that I did? The corporation never tried to exterminate the Na’vi at all. They destroyed the Home Tree because it was on the deposit of unobtanium; they used gas in an effort to disperse the Na’vi without killing them. They made no attempt to pursue and destroy the Na’vi, although they easily could have done so; any casualties were incidental. Likewise, the attempt to destroy the Tree of Souls was an attempt to cow and intimidate the Na’vi _without killing them_. The only Na’vi who died in the assault were warriors who were attacking. Again, you seem to be interpreting the movie based on your own preconceived notions rather than what is in the movie itself. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-politics-of-avatar/525541/69 "2010-01-20T20:15:25Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Heck, I’d like to see humans learning from the experience, including realizing that maybe these USB ponytails are pretty damn useful. In the sequel, the humans will return with more advanced battlesuits with genetically- and surgically-altered humans mentally plugged into them directly, in a manner analogous to how the Na’vi uplink to the various flora and fauna (and indeed how humans link to the avatars). > > Then it’s clobbering time… If another preachy message is needed, make it something about how humans have mastered machines but lost their souls, or some such crap. The humans will be returning 15 years, at least, from the time they set off. Unless the world is run by a president for life, it is unlikely that those in power when they return will have been in power when they left, so they’ll have no vested interest in defending RDA. The RDA process failed - they spend billions of dollars, got a bunch of humans killed, and came back with nothing. What do you think the RDA stockholders would say if the board decided to spend a bunch of billions more for something that is controversial to say the least, and dealing with a four light year supply chain and going up against natives who are now ready? Corporations hate controversy. Even WalMart has backed down on a couple of things. Do you really think the probably new management of RDA will stand behind a bunch of losers, when it will be real easy to cut them loose? The RDA management probably has a very good case that the people on Pandora went against explicit directives, which it seems they did. No amount of unobtainium would be worth the flack they’d get if they supported these clowns. I don’t know what the sequel will be about, but going back with bigger guns is pure political fantasy. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-politics-of-avatar/525541/70 "2010-01-20T20:36:08Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I don’t know what the sequel will be about, but going back with bigger guns is pure political fantasy. I doubt that watching a series of board and treaty negotiations in 3D is going to be what Cameron has in mind. And the way that Schwarzenegger gushed about Avatar recently, you would think he’s trying to butter up the producers for a role in a future film. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-politics-of-avatar/525541/71 "2010-01-20T21:15:46Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Again, did you see the same movie that I did? The corporation never tried to exterminate the Na’vi at all. They destroyed the Home Tree because it was on the deposit of unobtanium; they used gas in an effort to disperse the Na’vi without killing them. They made no attempt to pursue and destroy the Na’vi, although they easily could have done so; any casualties were incidental. Yeah, dropping whole palettes of C4, what could happen? They’ll view us as liberators! ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-politics-of-avatar/525541/72 "2010-01-20T21:18:32Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > The RDA process failed - they spend billions of dollars, got a bunch of humans killed, and came back with nothing. That’s not at all established. The mining operation had been there for years already; going after the big tree represented exploiting a big lode. It wasn’t the _start_ of the operation. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-politics-of-avatar/525541/73 "2010-01-20T21:24:10Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I don’t know what the sequel will be about, but going back with bigger guns is pure political fantasy. _Avatar 2: The Halls of Congress_ “Senator, I’d like to direct your attention to Page 534 of the Pandoran Protection Bill, section 35 titled ‘Indigenous Shipment and Quarantine Procedures’ …” ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-politics-of-avatar/525541/74 "2010-01-20T21:31:41Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > _Avatar 2: The Halls of Congress_ > > “Senator, I’d like to direct your attention to Page 534 of the Pandoran Protection Bill, section 35 titled ‘Indigenous Shipment and Quarantine Procedures’ …” That one will be 20 hours long. The filibustering section is correlated with an increase in popcorn sales. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-politics-of-avatar/525541/75 "2010-01-20T21:34:40Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > I doubt that watching a series of board and treaty negotiations in 3D is going to be what Cameron has in mind. Actually an interesting sequel would be the discovery that Earth has an intelligence, and we dumb humans have been deaf to it for years. That would lead to conflict right at home and a hell of an ecology message. Though Conan Doyle [did it first.](http://www.forgottenfutures.com/game/ff3/wscream.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-politics-of-avatar/525541/76 "2010-01-20T21:40:55Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > That’s not at all established. The mining operation had been there for years already; going after the big tree represented exploiting a big lode. It wasn’t the _start_ of the operation. We weren’t shown any other mining operations, and clearly RDA was getting a bit desperate for the large quantities of ore under the Home Tree. It is kind of odd that the humans don’t go where the ore is easy to obtain, so perhaps the Na’vi always congregate over deposits. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-politics-of-avatar/525541/77 "2010-01-20T21:42:01Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Yeah, dropping whole palettes of C4, what could happen? They’ll view us as liberators! So why didn’t they attempt to wipe out the Na’vi when they destroyed Home Tree? They used non-lethal gas on them; they could just have easily have used toxic gas or gunned them down and then they would never have had to assault the Tree of Souls in the first place. That was extremely poor strategy if their intention was extermination. And when they went to attack the Tree of Souls, there was no evidence that they knew in advance the Na’vi had taken refuge there. They had no reconnaissance capability there; as far as they knew they were just destroying a tree. Your argument is inconsistent with what is shown in the movie. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-politics-of-avatar/525541/78 "2010-01-20T21:45:10Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > So why didn’t they attempt to wipe out the Na’vi when they destroyed Home Tree? They used non-lethal gas on them; they could just have easily have used toxic gas or gunned them down and then they would never have had to assault the Tree of Souls in the first place. That was extremely poor strategy if their intention was extermination. Humans being dumb and half-assed? My goodness, how implausible! ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-politics-of-avatar/525541/79 "2010-01-20T21:50:25Z")
> [@Reepicheep](#): > > …I heard a lot about trying to find something that the “natives wanted”, roads being the one thing I remember… Just as an aside… that seems a bit of a daft offer really. If you had a flying dragon you could ride on and control with your mind, would you ever use roads? I wouldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2010, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-politics-of-avatar/525541/80 "2010-01-20T21:51:15Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Humans being dumb and half-assed? My goodness, how implausible! You are really claiming that they didn’t exterminate the Na’vi when they had a perfect chance due to absolutely spectacular incompetence? The Colonel had meticulously planned the operation based on information on the structure of the Home Tree provided by Jake. It was designed to take down the tree, not to kill Na’vi. If that’s the best you can do, you are basically admitting that you can’t support your argument. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-politics-of-avatar/525541.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-politics-of-avatar/525541.md?page=5)