# The Pope....I Wonder **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 22, 2001, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-i-wonder/83205 "2001-09-22T14:29:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ultress](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/7c8e57/32.png) [@ultress](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultress)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2001, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-i-wonder/83205/1 "2001-09-22T14:29:31Z")
I try very hard in my heart to be understanding and non-condescending of other religions. I have my faith and I’m sure that there are millions that differ with me. So be it. I can accept that. I have heard over and over on the news this morning how the Pope does not approve of any type of military action; we are supposed to resolve this with talk. Yea, right. Wonder how many people those terrorists talked to as they were slamming into TWC and the Pentagon, and PA? Why is it so hard for people to understand that you CANNOT talk to these people, they hate the Western World and always will. So no, I’m not jumping up and down and singing in my heart as we head toward war. But I have the common sense to know that if we don’t take some type of action that we would be just as well off to run out in front of the next bus. Because the terrorists are not through by any means. I detest the thought of innocent people dying. On any side; any country. The saying ‘kill them all and let God sort them out’ is deplorable. I have to have enough faith in my countrymen and in my President to let them decide the best way/least lives taken to perserve our way of life. Makes you wonder if the Vatican were bombed if the Pope would simply have the dead bodies of the priests pulled off to the the side while he hurries to set up talks with the bombers to resolve their problems. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2001, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-i-wonder/83205/2 "2001-09-22T15:50:01Z")
Hearing something over and over on the news (particularly lengthy speeches by people such as the pope that are reduced to sound bytes for American audiences) is not the same thing as discovering what has actually been said. The pope is certainly not going to come out and say, “George, nuke 'em all and let God sort 'em out.” However, I have not seen any direct quotation from JP II that demanded that everyone eschew any military response. He has probably lamented the fact that nations are preparing for war, but I doubt that he has condemned the U.S. for considering taking measures to defend itself. Here is the pope’s [greeting to the U.S. Ambassador](http://www.vatican.va/news_services/or/or_eng/text.html#2) on September 13. He talks of the need to improve the world so that violence will be reduced; that seems pretty much typical of his statements. Is there an actual text of the pope lambasting Dubya’s speech or condemning the U.S. for preparing a military response? Or are we simply working from sound bytes and paraphrases? ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2001, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-i-wonder/83205/3 "2001-09-22T15:53:39Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by ultress \* > \*\* > I have heard over and over on the news this morning how the Pope does not approve of any type of military action; we are supposed to resolve this with talk._\* I think you are overstating the pontiff’s point. The one [statement](http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/09/16/pope.prayers/index.html) I’ve read from him, encourages “restraint” and a “committment to justice and peace”. I don’t read that statement as saying, “don’t use military action under any circumstances”. ---
**Author:** ![lno](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a8b319/32.png) [@lno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lno)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2001, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-i-wonder/83205/4 "2001-09-22T16:00:11Z")
Quoting from a [cnn.com](http://cnn.com) article: [/quote] Pope John Paul II sent a telegram to President George W. Bush. “I hurry to express to you and your fellow citizens my profound sorrow and my closeness in prayer for the nation at this dark and tragic moment,” he said. Speaking at his Wednesday audience, he said Americans should have the courage to persevere because “evil and death will not have the last word.” [/quote] In a way, I hope the Pope does speak out against a military conflict. Catholicism and Christianity in general is a fascinating religion to me. Peace- forgiveness- love- and above all, turn the other cheek. Can I turn the other cheek in the face of this tragedy? No. Not today, for sure. Maybe never. It is nice, though, to have at least one prominent voice saying “You may not listen to me, and this may have no effect, but it must be said. Peace, forgiveness, love.” I just wish I could react in that way. ---
**Author:** ![Alatariel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Alatariel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alatariel)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2001, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-i-wonder/83205/5 "2001-09-22T16:00:36Z")
I have faith in my \*\* religious leader’s\*\* message of peace. I also hope that my **political leader** will act in the most intelligent, appropriate, and restrained manner. Um, the Pope is not a national or political leader. And religion has little to do with ‘common sense’ solutions to problems. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2001, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-i-wonder/83205/6 "2001-09-22T16:13:29Z")
He may not be trying to stop it but he may slow it down. [Pope arrives near crisis zone](http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/asia-pacific/newsid_1557000/1557683.stm) ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2001, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-i-wonder/83205/7 "2001-09-22T16:14:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Alatariel \* > Um, the Pope is not a national or political leader. And religion has little to do with ‘common sense’ solutions to problems. I beg to differ. The Pope is one of the most powerful political leaders in the world. ---
**Author:** ![ultress](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/7c8e57/32.png) [@ultress](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultress)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2001, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-i-wonder/83205/8 "2001-09-22T16:39:12Z")
I’m at work today so I’m getting my information off the radio, MSNBC. Is this information incorrect? I’ve only heard this during this morning. In the past I’ve read and heard what everyone’s said in their above posts. It may be that the news commentators are playing out their own agenda. And yes, I agree. The Pope is a very strong political figure. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2001, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-i-wonder/83205/9 "2001-09-22T17:18:26Z")
Hmmm. Christ told his people to love unconditionally. To give the shirt off their backs. To forgive and to turn the other cheek. PERIOD. Not once, not twice, _always_. Gee, I wonder why the Pope might be trying to follow Christ’s teachings? ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2001, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-i-wonder/83205/10 "2001-09-22T17:54:34Z")
Catholic scholars and clergy spend a _lot_ of time and effort on the concept of a “just war.” Whether they’ve historically lived up to the standards they’ve set for themselves is of course a matter for many a GD thread. But to say that the Catholic heirarchy is reflexively “pro-peace” without a concept of justice is not correct. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2001, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-i-wonder/83205/11 "2001-09-22T20:02:23Z")
Well, from the [MSNBC News web site](http://www.msnbc.com/news/632231.asp), we get this comment and quote about his arrival in Kazakstan: > [@](#): > > “I greet the Islamic leaders and faithful, who boast a long religious tradition in this region,” the pope said. “My good wishes go to all people of good will who are engaged in promoting moral and spiritual values that are capable of guaranteeing a future of peace for everyone.” > John Paul did not mention the international crisis sparked by the attacks against the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2001, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-i-wonder/83205/12 "2001-09-23T00:54:36Z")
The Sixth commandment, THOU SHALT NOT KILL!!! did you get that? THOU SHALT NOT \*\* KILL \*\* missed it? one more time THOU SHALT \*\* NOT KILL \*\* get it? good. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2001, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-i-wonder/83205/13 "2001-09-23T00:58:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by treis \* > \*\*The Sixth commandment, > > THOU SHALT NOT KILL!!! > \*\* Um…actually a much more accurate translation is THOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER!!! Get it? Got it? Good. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2001, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-i-wonder/83205/14 "2001-09-23T01:12:03Z")
Luke 6:26 If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. Apparently, it’s in the Pope’s contract. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2001, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-i-wonder/83205/15 "2001-09-23T01:13:55Z")
I love the internet! Matthew 5:38-39 You have heard that it was said, `Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth. But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2001, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-i-wonder/83205/16 "2001-09-23T02:04:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by treis \* > THOU SHALT \*\* NOT KILL \*\* > > get it? good. \*\* In addition to **Fenris** ’s addendum: Exodus 31:15 - Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the LORD; whoever does any work on the sabbath day shall be put to death. There are other instances in the OT where death is prescribed for certain things, but that’s certainly one. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2001, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-i-wonder/83205/17 "2001-09-23T03:16:52Z")
Duelling Bible verses! I feel like I was still living in Wheaton, IL! ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2001, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-i-wonder/83205/18 "2001-09-23T03:19:30Z")
He walks the walk as well as talking the talk. One of the first things he did after regaining consciousness - having been shot and nearly killed by Mehmet Ali Agca, Pope John Paul II forgave Agca. This is why he’s the Pope, and I’m not… I try to live Christ’s teachings as best I can, but I would not have been in a forgiving mood. - Rick ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2001, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-i-wonder/83205/19 "2001-09-23T03:45:50Z")
And I have friends who claim that Christ’s covenant with us superseded the original one with the Jews, so, if I thought like them, I could say that New Testament quotes trump Old Testament quotes. But I don’t think like them and saying I did would get me in deserved trouble with my Jewish pals, so I won’t. Yes, I have disagreed with the present pontiff on some topics, enough to have left his fold, but the old man has always been consistent on this point. Getting through The War with his beliefs intact leaves me with considerable respect for him. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2001, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-i-wonder/83205/20 "2001-09-23T03:49:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ultress \* > \*\* > Makes you wonder if the Vatican were bombed if the Pope would simply have the dead bodies of the priests pulled off to the the side while he hurries to set up talks with the bombers to resolve their problems. \*\* Except for the “pulling the bodies to the side” bit – obviously there would be organized one grand, kick-out-all-the-stops Funeral Mass first – exactly what OTHER than talk (OK, preach) to the bombers, would anyone expect the \*&^%$ **POPE** to DO??? What the else **CAN** he do? Publicly ask God to smite them? Surely in the case of a strike on the Vatican, the Commandant of the Swiss Guard [sub](Vatican Security)[/sub] would call up Interpol and file an international warrant for the culprit’s arrest. And the Secretary of State of the Holy See would man the phones to his counterparts in all major Western countries to seek a wide manhunt. But any modern Pope would meanwhile be making loving exhortations to those responsible to repent, seek the Mercy of God, and submit to justice in fair trial. As **dropzone** said, it’s in his contract. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-i-wonder/83205.md?page=2)