# The Pope says I'm a Nazi - or Godwin in one step **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 16, 2010, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-says-im-a-nazi-or-godwin-in-one-step/553997 "2010-09-16T18:40:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2010, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-says-im-a-nazi-or-godwin-in-one-step/553997/81 "2010-09-17T20:32:12Z")
If only. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2010, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-says-im-a-nazi-or-godwin-in-one-step/553997/82 "2010-09-17T21:02:53Z")
Meh. Just a PR mistake. Nothing as bad as the pedophile thing. Nothing to see here. Oh, and while ignoring the evangelists won’t make them go away, fighting back against them makes them more determined. I’ve always wondered why more people don’t just say they are Christian. Yeah, it’s a lie if you aren’t, but it seems that most morality systems permit a lie for the greater good. And how often would you have to do it? Are there really enough assholes out there that accost people to try and convert them? [cue Der Trihs saying yes.] ---
**Author:** ![Nancarrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c37758/32.png) [@Nancarrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nancarrow)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2010, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-says-im-a-nazi-or-godwin-in-one-step/553997/83 "2010-09-17T22:03:29Z")
> [@Michael\_Ellis](#): > > Here’s an idea: how about both the Pope _and_ the various atheist attention whores shut the fuck up and let normal people get on with their lives. Theists go first. I _insist_. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2010, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-says-im-a-nazi-or-godwin-in-one-step/553997/84 "2010-09-17T22:09:15Z")
I’m still having a hard time reading past “Holyroodhouse.” It almost sounds like the punchline to a racist Japanes joke. But the pope? Always a funny guy. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2010, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-says-im-a-nazi-or-godwin-in-one-step/553997/85 "2010-09-17T23:03:50Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Oh, and while ignoring the evangelists won’t make them go away, fighting back against them makes them more determined. I don’t think so. Atheists and minority religious sects being silent for centuries never shut the evangelists up. Not fighting back just means they come looking for you. > [@BigT](#): > > I’ve always wondered why more people don’t just say they are Christian. What makes you think they don’t? > [@BigT](#): > > Yeah, it’s a lie if you aren’t, but it seems that most morality systems permit a lie for the greater good. Actually in this case the lie would be a matter of selfishness or self preservation, not some “greater good”. > [@BigT](#): > > And how often would you have to do it? In a nation like America? Constantly. We make every kid pledge allegiance to the flag “under God”, administer oaths demanding people swear in God’s name, force people to attend religious meetings at businesses and in the military, and so on. > [@BigT](#): > > Are there really enough assholes out there that accost people to try and convert them? America is a Christian dominated country, and that behavior is pretty much the whole point of Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2010, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-says-im-a-nazi-or-godwin-in-one-step/553997/86 "2010-09-17T23:10:56Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > I’m still having a hard time reading past “Holyroodhouse.” It almost sounds like the punchline to a racist Japanes joke. > > But the pope? Always a funny guy. There isn’t a “Holyroodhouse”, but it is pronounced “Holy Rude”, or should be, it isn’t usually, being mostly “Holly Rude”. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2010, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-says-im-a-nazi-or-godwin-in-one-step/553997/87 "2010-09-17T23:14:35Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I’ve always wondered why more people don’t just say they are Christian. “What church do you go to?” > [@](#): > > Yeah, it’s a lie if you aren’t, but it seems that most morality systems permit a lie for the greater good. The greater good. What a load of shit. I’ll lie to protect myself from danger if necessary, I won’t lie just to make some asshole feel good about living in a Christian country. If he can’t handle other faiths or lack thereof, that’s his problem, not mine. ---
**Author:** ![dhkendall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a9adbd/32.png) [@dhkendall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dhkendall)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2010, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-says-im-a-nazi-or-godwin-in-one-step/553997/88 "2010-09-17T23:28:21Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > Benedict got around one-fifth of the crowd that John Paul II did, in the same venue at Bellahouston Park. That’s the only two Popes to have ever visited Glasgow, about 30 years apart. JPII was obviously a much more charismatic and important figure, but that’s a hell of a drop off. Maybe my local news anchormonster was wrong, but she mentioned this is the first time the Pope has been to (she may have said “England”, which may be technically correct, or used in the sense of “the UK”, or I may be mis-remembering and “UK” was said) since Henry VIII broke from the Catholic church. So this isn’t anywhere near the first time the UK has been invaded by men in white dresses? > [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > Side note: The CNN website was featuring some Scottish lady with cerebral palsy who has now, thanks to this visit, been blessed by two popes. But … I notice she still has cebral palsy. Myself, I would have expected better results. 😕 Has anyone, Catholic or otherwise, claimed that a Papal blessing = instant cure from illness? IANACatholic (rather, a Protestant Christian) but I’ve never heard that. ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2010, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-says-im-a-nazi-or-godwin-in-one-step/553997/89 "2010-09-17T23:49:37Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > [@Michael\_Ellis](#): > > > > Here’s an idea: how about both the Pope _and_ the various atheist attention whores shut the fuck up and let normal people get on with their lives. > > In practice that amounts to telling atheists to shut up and take it. The believers aren’t going to shut up, and “atheist attention whores” (aka atheists who don’t grovel properly) exist in the first place because the believers won’t leave us alone. So your solution is to not leave anyone else alone? ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2010, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-says-im-a-nazi-or-godwin-in-one-step/553997/90 "2010-09-17T23:51:07Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > [@BigT](#): > > > > Are there really enough assholes out there that accost people to try and convert them? > > America is a Christian dominated country, and that behavior is pretty much the whole point of Christianity. Goddamn, I must not be in America, then, since apart from a few random annoying street preachers nobody has accosted me to convert from being agnostic. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2010, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-says-im-a-nazi-or-godwin-in-one-step/553997/91 "2010-09-17T23:58:50Z")
> [@dhkendall](#): > > Maybe my local news anchormonster was wrong, but she mentioned this is the first time the Pope has been to (she may have said “England”, which may be technically correct, or used in the sense of “the UK”, or I may be mis-remembering and “UK” was said) since Henry VIII broke from the Catholic church. So this isn’t anywhere near the first time the UK has been invaded by men in white dresses? This time around is a state visit, a first since Henry VIII, I suppose, when JPII came here it was just a regular visit. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2010, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-says-im-a-nazi-or-godwin-in-one-step/553997/92 "2010-09-18T00:57:38Z")
[QUOTE=BigT] I’ve always wondered why more people don’t just say they are Christian. Yeah, it’s a lie if you aren’t, but it seems that most morality systems permit a lie for the greater good. And how often would you have to do it? [/QUOTE] I’m “out” as an atheist for the same reason that a lot of homosexuals come out as queer: Being open and upfront about your beliefs in public is an important step toward making those beliefs mainstream. If everyone hides in the closet then atheism can be relegated to the margins. It will only be the province of cranks and oddballs, not the sort of thing that “normal people” believe. I grew up in Oklahoma and I regularly got harassed for being a non-believer. So for a while I wasn’t upfront about my atheism. But then it occurred to me that by not being open about my beliefs (particularly now that I live somewhere where it’s relatively easy to be an atheist) I was perpetuating the environment that made that sort of harassment okay. If someone says stupid, offensive shit about black people, the NAACP makes a big stink. That makes people think twice about saying stupid, offensive shit. Believers need to discover that if they say stupid, offensive shit about atheists, we’re going to raise a stink too. Maybe after a generation or two, they’ll learn to stop doing it. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2010, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-says-im-a-nazi-or-godwin-in-one-step/553997/93 "2010-09-18T01:42:48Z")
I can be for not being harassed. That makes sense. The problem is, what tends to be protested isn’t harassment. There’s nothing harassing about what the Pope said, even if it’s distasteful to you. There are quite a few Christians who believe Christianity is better than atheism–at the same numbers (proportionally) as atheists who believe atheism is better. If atheism wouldn’t lead to bad things, they would be atheists. It’s just that it’s considered extremely rude to say that. As for more typical situations: someone asks you if you are a Christian, and, when given a negative answer, tries to convince you to adopt their belief, is at worst annoying. Yes, if you’ve made it clear you don’t want to be bothered, they are being rude if they continue (and that hurts the proselytizing efforts). It is nowhere near the level of problem of other minority groups. I’m the first to stand up when you are actually discriminated against. harassed, or even just treated unfairly. Heck, I don’t even mind the idea that the Pope should be pitted for trying to Godwinize. But to treat it like it’s anywhere near as bad as the pedophilia thing? It shouldn’t even be mentioned in the same sentence. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2010, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-says-im-a-nazi-or-godwin-in-one-step/553997/94 "2010-09-18T01:44:43Z")
> [@Michael\_Ellis](#): > > > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > > In practice that amounts to telling atheists to shut up and take it. The believers aren’t going to shut up, and “atheist attention whores” (aka atheists who don’t grovel properly) exist in the first place because the believers won’t leave us alone. > > So your solution is to not leave anyone else alone? My “solution” is to push back when pushed. _I’m_ not constantly bringing religion into conversations. I don’t spam the forum with threads denouncing religion, the way some people spam this and other forums with threads supporting religion. I simply refuse to shut up and go along. If no one brought up religion on the SDMB I’d seldom if ever mention my atheism; but in reality the subject is constantly brought up by other people and I’m not going to just sit by and let them pretend that everyone agrees with them. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2010, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-says-im-a-nazi-or-godwin-in-one-step/553997/95 "2010-09-18T01:50:32Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I can be for not being harassed. That makes sense. > > The problem is, what tends to be protested isn’t harassment. There’s nothing harassing about what the Pope said, even if it’s distasteful to you. There are quite a few Christians who believe Christianity is better than atheism–at the same numbers (proportionally) as atheists who believe atheism is better. If atheism wouldn’t lead to bad things, they would be atheists. It’s just that it’s considered extremely rude to say that. Say what? Believers say that about atheism all the time. > [@BigT](#): > > As for more typical situations: someone asks you if you are a Christian, and, when given a negative answer, tries to convince you to adopt their belief, is at worst annoying. Yes, if you’ve made it clear you don’t want to be bothered, they are being rude if they continue (and that hurts the proselytizing efforts). Or they key your car, ruin your wedding or your funeral (the classic example being the preacher condemning the deceased and telling the mourners he’s burning in Hell), or find an excuse to fire you. Or if you are their kid send you off to a camp where they’ll beat and starve you into professing being a good Christian. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2010, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-says-im-a-nazi-or-godwin-in-one-step/553997/96 "2010-09-18T01:57:13Z")
He seems to be attracting some [serious critics](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100918/ap_on_re_eu/eu_pope_britain) in Britain. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2010, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-says-im-a-nazi-or-godwin-in-one-step/553997/97 "2010-09-18T02:16:56Z")
> [@dhkendall](#): > > > [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > > > Side note: The CNN website was featuring some Scottish lady with cerebral palsy who has now, thanks to this visit, been blessed by two popes. But … I notice she still has cebral palsy. Myself, I would have expected better results. > > 😕 Has anyone, Catholic or otherwise, claimed that a Papal blessing = instant cure from illness? IANACatholic (rather, a Protestant Christian) but I’ve never heard that. Well, shoot, you’d think there’d be _some_ benefit, like a miracle, or else why bother? Or was the evil bitch going to burn in Hell if she hadn’t gotten the blessing? ---
**Author:** ![dhkendall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a9adbd/32.png) [@dhkendall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dhkendall)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2010, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-says-im-a-nazi-or-godwin-in-one-step/553997/98 "2010-09-18T04:22:40Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > > [@dhkendall](#): > > > > 😕 Has anyone, Catholic or otherwise, claimed that a Papal blessing = instant cure from illness? IANACatholic (rather, a Protestant Christian) but I’ve never heard that. > > Well, shoot, you’d think there’d be _some_ benefit, like a miracle, or else why bother? Or was the evil bitch going to burn in Hell if she hadn’t gotten the blessing? You’d think there’d be some benefit of having little kids give flowers to the Queen when she comes, or else why would I have bothered having my girl stand near the security fence during her last visit here to do just that (and have her point out to the queen that she didn’t see her flowers. That’s my girl! 🙂 ) You think there’d be some benefit of a celebrity (well, kind of minor celebrity) sending little old me a Christmas card once (and her swapping C-section stories with my wife (they both gave birth via C-section) like they were old friends)? I know _I_ felt pretty important then! Heck, I’m not Catholic, but I think it would be pretty cool if I got a blessing from the Pope. I’m not Conservative (I’m anything but) but I think it would be the bee’s knees to meet our current Conservative Prime Minister. The lady is a Good Catholic, so meeting the Pope and getting a blessing from him is, I assume, better than an orgasm for her. But does she, or other Catholics, believe that he can heal her? I haven’t heard that said at all … (When the Pope was here in 1984, my classmate, who I’d describe as pretty agnostic now, probably “nominally Protestant” then) thought it was really cool that the Pope blessed his gym bag.) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2010, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-says-im-a-nazi-or-godwin-in-one-step/553997/99 "2010-09-18T04:28:04Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I There’s nothing harassing about what the Pope said, even if it’s distasteful to you. He said atheism was responsible for Nazism, which is wrong and stupid. He’s whitewashing the role that Christian attitudes toward Jews played in bringing about the Holocaust, and attempting to hide the ugly fact that the vast majority of Nazis (including Hitler) were Christians. The Pope seems to think that without a belief in God we become monsters. And he points to the Holocaust as evidence. But what the Holocaust really shows is that Christianity has NO moral weight whatsoever. Millions of decent church-going Germans happily shipped their neighbors off to the camps. Their belief in God meant nothing, because if you ground your morals in belief in an imaginary being, it doesn’t take much effort to imagine that He wants you to do something monstrous. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2010, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-says-im-a-nazi-or-godwin-in-one-step/553997/100 "2010-09-18T04:36:30Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > I think what he said was perfectly defensible. > > He spoke of radically atheist regimes There’s never been any such thing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-says-im-a-nazi-or-godwin-in-one-step/553997.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-says-im-a-nazi-or-godwin-in-one-step/553997.md?page=6)