# The Pope says I'm a Nazi - or Godwin in one step **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 16, 2010, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-says-im-a-nazi-or-godwin-in-one-step/553997 "2010-09-16T18:40:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-says-im-a-nazi-or-godwin-in-one-step/553997/121 "2010-09-19T16:16:51Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > Right. Let’s go to the tape. > > > [@](#): > > > > …Even in our own lifetime, we can recall how Britain and her leaders stood against a Nazi tyranny that wished to eradicate God from society and denied our common humanity to many, especially the Jews, who were thought unfit to live. > > > > I also recall the regime’s attitude to Christian pastors and religious who spoke the truth in love, opposed the Nazis and paid for that opposition with their lives. > > > > As we reflect on the sobering lessons of the atheist extremism of the twentieth century, let us never forget how the exclusion of God, religion and virtue from public life leads ultimately to a truncated vision of man and of society and thus to a ‘reductive vision of the person and his destiny’ (Caritas in Veritate, 29). > > > > Sixty-five years ago, Britain played an essential role in forging the post-war international consensus, which favoured the establishment of the United Nations and ushered in a hitherto unknown period of peace and prosperity in Europe. > > > > In more recent years, the international community has followed closely events in Northern Ireland which have led to the signing of the Good Friday Agreement, and the devolution of powers to the Northern Ireland Assembly. > > > > Your Majesty´s government and the government of Ireland, together with the political, religious and civil leaders of Northern Ireland, have helped give birth to a peaceful resolution of the conflict there. > > > > I encourage everyone involved to continue to walk courageously together on the path marked out for them towards a just and lasting peace. > > > > Looking abroad, the United Kingdom remains a key figure politically and economically on the international stage. > > > > Your government and people are the shapers of ideas that still have an impact far beyond the British Isles. > > > > This places upon them a particular duty to act wisely for the common good. > > > > Similarly, because their opinions reach such a wide audience, the British media have a graver responsibility than most and a greater opportunity to promote the peace of nations, the integral development of peoples and the spread of authentic human rights. > > > > May all Britons continue to live by the values of honesty, respect and fair-mindedness that have won them the esteem and admiration of many. > > > > Today, the United Kingdom strives to be a modern and multicultural society. > > > > In this challenging enterprise, may it always maintain its respect for those traditional values and cultural expressions that more aggressive forms of secularism no longer value or even tolerate. > > > > Let it not obscure the Christian foundation that underpins its freedoms; and may that patrimony, which has always served the nation well, constantly inform the example your government and people set before the two billion members of the Commonwealth and the great family of English-speaking nations throughout the world. > > > > May God bless Your Majesty and all the people of your realm. Thank you." > > Now, we see here that some paragraphs separate the passage about WWII (which was complimentary toward Britain) and the later passage about secularism. Now, it seems to me to be a challenge to Britain to live up to its ideals previously well expressed. Good for you ! I picked up on the same thing ! This is simply manufactured outrage. Connecting two passages both delivered in different contexts from different parts of his speech to come up with a new meaning. Yes he did urge Britain to oppose extreme secularism. Did everyone miss the operative word “extreme” ? It has great significance amongst us when we oppose “extreme” Islam rathar than Islam. Extreme secularism in the context of his speech can at the very least mean any movement that wishes to undermine the role of faith in modern society. A call to oppose that force seems perfectly reasonable for a pope to do. I do not care for this particular pope, nor for the church he represents in general, but this outrage is ridiculous . ---
**Author:** ![Rayne\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df705f/32.png) [@Rayne\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rayne_Man)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-says-im-a-nazi-or-godwin-in-one-step/553997/122 "2010-09-19T16:25:00Z")
And certain tabloid newspapers are trying to put words into his mouth by dragging up that old myth about certain councils wanting to ban Christmas, and [turn it in to “Winterval”](http://tabloid-watch.blogspot.com/2010/09/winterval-stories-begin.html) ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-says-im-a-nazi-or-godwin-in-one-step/553997/123 "2010-09-19T16:37:19Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > Good for you ! I picked up on the same thing ! > > This is simply manufactured outrage. Connecting two passages both delivered in different contexts from different parts of his speech to come up with a new meaning. > > Yes he did urge Britain to oppose extreme secularism. Did everyone miss the operative word “extreme” ? It has great significance amongst us when we oppose “extreme” Islam rathar than Islam. > > Extreme secularism in the context of his speech can at the very least mean any movement that wishes to undermine the role of faith in modern society. A call to oppose that force seems perfectly reasonable for a pope to do. > > I do not care for this particular pope, nor for the church he represents in general, but this outrage is ridiculous . Let’s go to the tape again. That first part specifically. > [@](#): > > …Even in our own lifetime, we can recall how Britain and her leaders stood against a Nazi tyranny that wished to eradicate God from society and denied our common humanity to many, especially the Jews, who were thought unfit to live. > > I also recall the regime’s attitude to Christian pastors and religious who spoke the truth in love, opposed the Nazis and paid for that opposition with their lives. > > As we reflect on the sobering lessons of the atheist extremism of the twentieth century, let us never forget how the exclusion of God, religion and virtue from public life leads ultimately to a truncated vision of man and of society and thus to a ‘reductive vision of the person and his destiny’ (Caritas in Veritate, 29). He says the Nazis were trying to “eradicate God from society.” They were not, as many quotes from Hitler in this thread alone indicate. The Nazis were not atheists. They did not wish to “undermine the role of faith in society.” They said themselves they were doing what they did for the glory of God. To ignore that and blame their actions on atheist extremism is slander against an innocent group. That is not taken out of context. ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-says-im-a-nazi-or-godwin-in-one-step/553997/124 "2010-09-19T17:23:52Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > Good for you ! I picked up on the same thing ! > > This is simply manufactured outrage. Connecting two passages both delivered in different contexts from different parts of his speech to come up with a new meaning. > > Yes he did urge Britain to oppose extreme secularism. Did everyone miss the operative word “extreme” ? It has great significance amongst us when we oppose “extreme” Islam rathar than Islam. > > Extreme secularism in the context of his speech can at the very least mean any movement that wishes to undermine the role of faith in modern society. A call to oppose that force seems perfectly reasonable for a pope to do. > > I do not care for this particular pope, nor for the church he represents in general, but this outrage is ridiculous . Manufactured outrage? In the English media? No kidding, count me shocked. God I hate living here sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![Nancarrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c37758/32.png) [@Nancarrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nancarrow)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-says-im-a-nazi-or-godwin-in-one-step/553997/125 "2010-09-19T19:38:14Z")
> [@Michael\_Ellis](#): > > > [@An\_Gadai](#): > > > > I’m gonna need to see a cite for that. > > [http://fatangstyatheistwhowantstofellatericharddawkins.com/](http://fatangstyatheistwhowantstofellatericharddawkins.com/) Off to bed with you, Mikey, the grown-ups are having a grown-up discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-says-im-a-nazi-or-godwin-in-one-step/553997/126 "2010-09-19T21:59:00Z")
> [@Nancarrow](#): > > > [@Michael\_Ellis](#): > > > > [http://fatangstyatheistwhowantstofellatericharddawkins.com/](http://fatangstyatheistwhowantstofellatericharddawkins.com/) > > Off to bed with you, Mikey, the grown-ups are having a grown-up discussion. I’m praying to God in the hopes that he smites your ass. In fact, I hope you suffocate crawling up Richard Dawkins’ ass. ---
**Author:** ![Lobot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ce7236/32.png) [@Lobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobot)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-says-im-a-nazi-or-godwin-in-one-step/553997/127 "2010-09-19T23:50:55Z")
Richard Dawkins [bites back](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_0kFU7IfPM). ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-says-im-a-nazi-or-godwin-in-one-step/553997/128 "2010-09-19T23:54:58Z")
For a scientist, he has an amazing ability to not do anything scientific yet remain “important”. ---
**Author:** ![Lobot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ce7236/32.png) [@Lobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobot)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-says-im-a-nazi-or-godwin-in-one-step/553997/129 "2010-09-20T00:03:30Z")
He remains “important” because he is a highly influential thinker (cf. _The Selfish Gene_) who is also willing to step on toes and reveal that the emperor has no clothes. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-says-im-a-nazi-or-godwin-in-one-step/553997/130 "2010-09-20T00:08:08Z")
> [@Lobot](#): > > Richard Dawkins [bites back](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_0kFU7IfPM). Apropos of nothing, it cracks me up that the sign language interpreter uses a finger under the nose for Hitler. ETA: And at this point, merely speaking of facts makes one a scientist. The public discourse has degraded _that far_. ---
**Author:** ![Nancarrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c37758/32.png) [@Nancarrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nancarrow)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-says-im-a-nazi-or-godwin-in-one-step/553997/131 "2010-09-20T00:08:46Z")
> [@Michael\_Ellis](#): > > For a scientist, he has an amazing ability to not do anything scientific yet remain “important”. [Idiot](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_publications_by_Richard_Dawkins). ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-says-im-a-nazi-or-godwin-in-one-step/553997/132 "2010-09-20T00:09:08Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > > [@Lobot](#): > > > > Richard Dawkins [bites back](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_0kFU7IfPM). > > Apropos of nothing, it cracks me up that the sign language interpreter uses a finger under the nose for Hitler. I’m guessing that might not really be genuine sign language. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-says-im-a-nazi-or-godwin-in-one-step/553997/133 "2010-09-20T00:11:06Z")
> [@Michael\_Ellis](#): > > > [@Bosstone](#): > > > > Apropos of nothing, it cracks me up that the sign language interpreter uses a finger under the nose for Hitler. > > I’m guessing that might not really be genuine sign language. Why would you think that? ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-says-im-a-nazi-or-godwin-in-one-step/553997/134 "2010-09-20T00:11:50Z")
> [@Nancarrow](#): > > > [@Michael\_Ellis](#): > > > > For a scientist, he has an amazing ability to not do anything scientific yet remain “important”. > > [Idiot](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_publications_by_Richard_Dawkins). As a frustrated grad student without a single published paper to his name despite quite a few submission, I see that this bibliography lists no academic papers since 2004 and it irrationally annoys me. I just wish Dawkins would do more lab work or scientific writing (not another umpteenth variation on how evolution is true and religion sucks) than trolling credulous idiots who happen to believe in a God and drawing attention to himself. ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-says-im-a-nazi-or-godwin-in-one-step/553997/135 "2010-09-20T00:15:10Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > > [@Michael\_Ellis](#): > > > > I’m guessing that might not really be genuine sign language. > > Why would you think that? I’m a skeptical asshole, basically. ---
**Author:** ![Lobot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ce7236/32.png) [@Lobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobot)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-says-im-a-nazi-or-godwin-in-one-step/553997/136 "2010-09-20T00:17:51Z")
> [@Michael\_Ellis](#): > > I’m a skeptical asshole, basically. There’s a difference between skeptical and irrationally paranoid. What would be the motivation for having someone pretend to sign for the crowd? ---
**Author:** ![Nancarrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c37758/32.png) [@Nancarrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nancarrow)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-says-im-a-nazi-or-godwin-in-one-step/553997/137 "2010-09-20T00:23:13Z")
Good grief. When you sneered at him for not doing real science, I had a mind to ask ‘well how many papers have YOU published exactly’? And, knowing nothing about you except that you were, statistically speaking, unlikely to be a scientist, that would have been a pointless jibe. But then you actually went and said you’re a grad student with no papers to your name yet. :rolleyes: You really ought to think before you post. Anyway, why the hell are you bothering this thread with your worthless opinions on how RD should best use his time? He has a website. Go explain to _him_ why he’s wasting his (and apparently your) time. ETA: d’oh, that was all for Mikey of course. ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-says-im-a-nazi-or-godwin-in-one-step/553997/138 "2010-09-20T00:24:27Z")
> [@Lobot](#): > > > [@Michael\_Ellis](#): > > > > I’m a skeptical asshole, basically. > > There’s a difference between skeptical and irrationally paranoid. What would be the motivation for having someone pretend to sign for the crowd? I just meant that the Hitler = finger mustache thing might not be a recognized sign in whatever version of sign language she’s “speaking” (speaking in quotes because she’s using her hands, not her mouth and vocal cords). I’m not sure how many sign languages would need a specific sign for “Hitler”, really. That was my only point. ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-says-im-a-nazi-or-godwin-in-one-step/553997/139 "2010-09-20T00:25:47Z")
> [@Nancarrow](#): > > Good grief. When you sneered at him for not doing real science, I had a mind to ask ‘well how many papers have YOU published exactly’? > > And, knowing nothing about you except that you were, statistically speaking, unlikely to be a scientist, that would have been a pointless jibe. But then you actually went and said you’re a grad student with no papers to your name yet. :rolleyes: You really ought to think before you post. > > Anyway, why the hell are you bothering this thread with your worthless opinions on how RD should best use his time? He has a website. Go explain to _him_ why he’s wasting his (and apparently your) time. > > ETA: d’oh, that was all for Mikey of course. It’s a fucking subforum for flaming people on an internet message board, man. My opinions have the same value as yours in terms of real life: fuck all. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-says-im-a-nazi-or-godwin-in-one-step/553997/140 "2010-09-20T00:25:48Z")
> [@Michael\_Ellis](#): > > > [@Nancarrow](#): > > > > [Idiot](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_publications_by_Richard_Dawkins). > > As a frustrated grad student without a single published paper to his name despite quite a few submission, I see that this bibliography lists no academic papers since 2004 and it irrationally annoys me. > > I just wish Dawkins would do more lab work or scientific writing (not another umpteenth variation on how evolution is true and religion sucks) than trolling credulous idiots who happen to believe in a God and drawing attention to himself. In what way do you believe he trolls theists? I’ve never seen him do that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-says-im-a-nazi-or-godwin-in-one-step/553997.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-pope-says-im-a-nazi-or-godwin-in-one-step/553997.md?page=8)