# The Pope's Bullshit attempt to appear liberal about gays! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 30, 2013, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946 "2013-07-30T20:47:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/1 "2013-07-30T20:47:13Z")
There is an interview widely reported in today’s media in which Pope Francis attempts to show us how liberal and open-minded he can be towards gays. What a crock of manure! Here is one of many news reports: [http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2013/07/29/pope-francis-wont-judge-gay-priests.html](http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2013/07/29/pope-francis-wont-judge-gay-priests.html) Read between the lines and you realize that he and the RC Church have not changed ONE IOTA! It is still all right to be gay as long as you are totally sexless. One of the slickest tricks of Catholics in the modern era is their ability to come across as liberal without changing at all. Imagine if I were to say this: “There is nothing wrong with being a Catholic; it is only the practice of Catholicism that is a grave moral disorder and an intrinsic evil.” Would you consider me a tolerant person or a flaming bigot? Yet when the Catholic Church and the present Pope espouse that very position relative to gays, it is supposed to represent tolerance and broad-mindedness. Poor Pope Francis humbly asks “Who am I to judge?” What a saintly man! What you are, sir, is the head of a reactionary, conservative organization that uses its money and power to block equal marriage rights of same-sex couples, even though your church does not even recognize civil marriages, and even though your Church has NEVER been forced to marry anyone they did not want to marry, whether same-sex couples or divorced Catholics. Be a reactionary if you wish, Francis, but don’t try to bullshit me with faux liberalism! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/2 "2013-07-30T20:52:07Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > Poor Pope Francis humbly asks “Who am I to judge?” :dubious: Hm. That does not sound like very . . . pontifical thing to say. Look, this is at least a step forward for a Catholic prelate. He’s not saying sodomy is no sin, of course not. If the Church/Pope ever says that, you will see the pronouncement coming years in advance, after much acrimonious debate and a great many other doctrinal sea-changes. But he is at least embracing common sense WRT priests: They’re supposed to be celibate anyway. If a priest keeps that vow, what difference does it make what **kind** of fleshly temptations he’s resisting? ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/3 "2013-07-30T20:56:41Z")
Since I cannot edit the title of my thread, could you correct the first word to read “The”. It would be much appreciated if you can. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/4 "2013-07-30T20:59:39Z")
It’s a change in the tone. I’d expect him to enter the pool at the shallow end if he intends to swim all the way across. You could give him more time to see if it’s a trend or just bullshit. Not that bullshit as the result would surprise me. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/5 "2013-07-30T21:05:34Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :dubious: Hm. That does not sound like very . . . pontifical thing to say. > > Look, this is at least a step forward for a Catholic prelate. He’s not saying sodomy is no sin, of course not. If the Church/Pope ever says that, you will see the pronouncement coming years in advance, after much acrimonious debate and a great many other doctrinal sea-changes. But he is at least embracing common sense WRT priests: They’re supposed to be celibate anyway. If a priest keeps that vow, what difference does it make what **kind** of fleshly temptations he’s resisting? It doesn’t and if he really means it and the catholic church is back to allowing both gay and straights into their seminaries, great. But, that doesn’t change the fact that their theology in general is unkind towards both women and homosexuals and I will continue to reject it. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/6 "2013-07-30T21:08:10Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :dubious: Hm. That does not sound like very . . . pontifical thing to say. > > Look, this is at least a step forward for a Catholic prelate. He’s not saying sodomy is no sin, of course not. If the Church/Pope ever says that, you will see the pronouncement coming years in advance, after much acrimonious debate and a great many other doctrinal sea-changes. But he is at least embracing common sense WRT priests: They’re supposed to be celibate anyway. If a priest keeps that vow, what difference does it make what **kind** of fleshly temptations he’s resisting? Believe it or not, I agree with your last statement. Assuming that a Church does demand chastity and celibacy (two different things, btw, that are often confused) of its clergy, and assuming that the clergy make this vow of their own free will, then it really does not matter if the priest is turned on by women, men, little boys, little girls or sheep. It does not matter if the idea of strangling a 14-year-old crack whore while he ejaculates is his fantasy of choice. As long as none of them do anything, what is in their heads foes not matter. BTW, I find the idea that the RC Church can redefine truth with a “sea change” like Big Brother in Orwell’s 1984 is one of the most convincing reasons to believe they are full of crap. Did the dead babies in Limbo receive notice that their special little place was about to be closed down by the RC Church? What’s that you say? Limbo never existed? Then was the Church lying or in error about a place that must have contained BILLIONS of unbaptised babies? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/7 "2013-07-30T21:19:21Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > Assuming that a Church does demand chastity and celibacy (two different things, btw, that are often confused) . . . What’s the difference? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/8 "2013-07-30T21:21:20Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > It does not matter if the idea of strangling a 14-year-old crack whore while he ejaculates is his fantasy of choice. As long as none of them do anything, what is in their heads foes not matter. Well, of course, if you’re Catholic, even what stays in your head can be a sin. IIRC (not Catholic myself), a sin is any thought, word, deed or omission contrary to the will of God. But, that’s not what you get defrocked/excommunicated for, it’s what you go to confession for. By those standards, nobody can **avoid** sinning, so there has to be a sin-wash available. In fact, if a Catholic somehow does manage to avoid sinning entirely and never has anything to bring to the confessional . . . well, that’s just not playing the game! ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/9 "2013-07-30T21:23:04Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > What’s the difference? Chastity means being true to your current state, so a chaste single person does not have sex, while a chaste married person does, but only with their partner. Celibacy means refraining from sex altogether. Single people are chaste and celibate. Married people are only chaste. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/10 "2013-07-30T21:25:30Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > Did the dead babies in Limbo receive notice that their special little place was about to be closed down by the RC Church? What’s that you say? Limbo never existed? Then was the Church lying or in error about a place that must have contained BILLIONS of unbaptised babies? A little knowledge is… From [here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limbo) we learn: > [@](#): > > On April 22, 2007, the advisory body known as the International Theological Commission released a document, originally commissioned by Pope John Paul II, entitled "The Hope of Salvation for Infants Who Die without Being Baptized. "After tracing the history of the various opinions that have been and are held on the eternal fate of unbaptized infants, including that connected with the theory of the Limbo of Infants, and after examining the theological arguments, the document stated its conclusion as follows: > Our conclusion is that the many factors that we have considered above give serious theological and liturgical grounds for hope that unbaptized infants who die will be saved and enjoy the beatific vision. We emphasize that these are reasons for prayerful hope, rather than grounds for sure knowledge. There is much that simply has not been revealed to us. We live by faith and hope in the God of mercy and love who has been revealed to us in Christ, and the Spirit moves us to pray in constant thankfulness and joy. What has been revealed to us is that the ordinary way of salvation is by the sacrament of baptism. None of the above considerations should be taken as qualifying the necessity of baptism or justifying delay in administering the sacrament. Rather, as we want to reaffirm in conclusion, they provide strong grounds for hope that God will save infants when we have not been able to do for them what we would have wished to do, namely, to baptize them into the faith and life of the Church. > Pope Benedict XVI authorized publication of this document, indicating that he considers it consonant with the Church’s teaching, though it is not an official expression of that teaching. Media reports that by the document “the Pope closed Limbo” are thus without foundation. Further on: > [@](#): > > It remains therefore a possible theological hypothesis" (second preliminary paragraph); and in paragraph 41 it repeats that the theory of Limbo “remains a possible theological opinion”. The document thus allows the hypothesis of a limbo of infants to be held as one of the existing theories about the fate of children who die without being baptised, a question on which there is “no explicit answer” from Scripture or tradition. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/11 "2013-07-30T21:26:39Z")
You have to keep in mind that this is a personage whose every utterance is analyzed for meaning, moreso perhaps than even the President. It’s a vague statement and from almost anyone else it would be insultingly patronizing, but coming from him it’s of tremendous import. I think it’s unfair to diss him because he didn’t suddenly swing all the way to the opposite of ca. 2,000 years’ opinion. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/12 "2013-07-30T21:32:35Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Married people are only chaste. No, singles are chaste. Married people are **caught.** ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/13 "2013-07-30T21:36:17Z")
I think it’s unfair to continue to perpetuate a culture and theology that has hurt so many people and will continue to do so for years. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/14 "2013-07-30T21:39:51Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > A little knowledge is… > > From [here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limbo) we learn:Further on: Limbo was sure as Hell (pardon the pun) not presented to me as a place that “might” exist when I received 14 years of Roman Catholic education in the 50s and 60s. What this sounds like to me is that the Church realized what idiots they would sound like for suddenly declaring it did not exist after saying it did for all those years, so all of a sudden the existence of Limbo becomes an optional belief. I am pretty sure that if I had told one of the brutal nuns and priests of my childhood that I chose not to believe in Limbo, I would have gotten a few more strappings and other forms of child assault in addition to the ones I was already getting. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/15 "2013-07-30T21:42:54Z")
**Valteron** , I am not quite sure why you insist on putting your rants in Great Debates. Every time you post a rant in GD, it gets moved to the proper forum, The BBQ Pit, and this one is no exception. Off you go. [/Modding] ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/16 "2013-07-30T21:55:07Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > **Valteron** , I am not quite sure why you insist on putting your rants in Great Debates. > > Every time you post a rant in GD, it gets moved to the proper forum, The BBQ Pit, and this one is no exception. > > Off you go. > > [/Modding] Just to answer your question, I think it is your personal dislike for me that makes you judge that almost anything I post is a rant rather than a debate. I do not deny that I express my viewpoint in strong language, but that does not automatically change it from a debate to a rant. If you look at my OP you will see that I am clearly inviting others to debate whether the Pope’s declaration is a move towards tolerance and a more liberal attitude, or whther he is just using an old bait-and-switch trick to make people believe he is more accepting when he is not. It is quite a legitimate debate. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/17 "2013-07-30T21:59:01Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > I think it’s unfair to continue to perpetuate a culture and theology that has hurt so many people and will continue to do so for years. What can you do? It ain’t going away. I’d love nothing better than to outlive Christianity, and Judaism, and Islam, every form of Abrahamic Yahvism – to see the world cleansed of Yahweh’s evil name within my threescore and ten – but I know I ain’t gonna. We just have to make the best of it, which is what Pope Frank is trying to do. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/18 "2013-07-30T21:59:48Z")
If that’s a debate then every thread on this board is a debate. (Which, they are, in that most of the time you are capable of disagreeing with the OP and expressing that disagreement. But that doesn’t mean they all should be in GD.) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/19 "2013-07-30T22:03:17Z")
I went to the Garden of Love, And saw what I never had seen: A Chapel was built in the midst, Where I used to play on the green. And the gates of this Chapel were shut, And Thou shalt not. writ over the door; So I turn’d to the Garden of Love, That so many sweet flowers bore. And I saw it was filled with graves, And tomb-stones where flowers should be: And Priests in black gowns, were walking their rounds, And binding with briars, my joys & desires. – William Blake ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/20 "2013-07-30T22:03:41Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > We just have to make the best of it, which is what Pope Frank is trying to do. We clearly have different ideas about what is making the best of it. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946.md?page=2)