# The Pope's Bullshit attempt to appear liberal about gays! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 30, 2013, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946 "2013-07-30T20:47:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2013, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/181 "2013-08-02T06:47:41Z")
Nm ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2013, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/182 "2013-08-02T06:53:52Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Sure there is sordid history, but that’s not what practioners currently feel about their organization. Are they still around as an official org? I thought they reorganized as Stormfront or something, and bill themselves as the patriot hero gun stockpiler constitutionist types. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2013, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/183 "2013-08-02T14:19:19Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Did some Muslim boyfriend complain that all you were good for was two quick pumps and a tickle afterwards? > > If so, apologies. We can expect a bit much. > > I’ve always thought it funny for all your rantings that the guy who set up my mother and father was a Canadian diplomat who specifically came to Iran because foreign service in the Muslim World was so popular for gays in the Anglo World. Admittedly they generally preferred Beirut, but life in Tehran was more relaxing than life in London, New York or Toronto. Yeah, Iran is real relaxing for gays. They just have to lie there while the wall is pushed over them, or wait on the gallows to get hanged. There is an ongoing holocaust against gay people in Muslim countries which you can of course just dismiss as unimportant. And no, I never had a Muslim boyfriend. I want someone I can live with, not die with. I DO contribute regularly to the Iranian Underground Railway, a Toronto-based organization that helps Iranian gays get out of Iran. "Of the Islamic states that ban lesbian and gay sex, Iran is the most zealously homophobic. Since 1980, when the fundamentalists came to power under the leadership of Ayatollah Khomeini, over 4,000 lesbians and gay men have been executed, according to estimates by the exiled Iranian homosexual rights group, Homan. In the early 1980’s, for example, 70 people were executed after they attempted to set up a lesbian and gay organization. Nearly 100 homosexuals were sentenced to death in 1992 following a raid on a private party. . . . Lesbians and gay men living in countries dominated by the New Dark Ages of Islamic fundamentalism cannot afford the liberal luxury of tolerating religious fanaticism. For them, the politically correct arguments about “cultural sensitivity” smack of surrender to the extremists who jeopardize their freedom and even their lives. ----- New Dark Ages H. Tavakoli, The Iranian,September 20, 1999 “A gay man who feared he would be executed if he were deported to his native Iran killed himself after the British government turned down his second appeal for asylum a coroner’s inquest was told on Tuesday. Hussein Nasseri, 26, was terrified of being returned to Iran where homosexuality is illegal and punishable by death.” -------- Gay Iranian Kills Himself After UK Asylum Appeal Denied Peter Moore, [365Gay.com](http://365Gay.com), April 20, 2005 Yeah, good old Iran! Do you suppose I could get a posting there?:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2013, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/184 "2013-08-02T15:41:14Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I’ve always thought it funny for all your rantings that the guy who set up my mother and father was a Canadian diplomat who specifically came to Iran because foreign service in the Muslim World was so popular for gays in the Anglo World. Admittedly they generally preferred Beirut, but life in Tehran was more relaxing than life in London, New York or Toronto. I know that you’re just trying to get into a pissing contest, but this strikes me as pretty unlikely today. I don’t know what it might have been like when you’re talking about, but I also don’t see how it’s relevant for the current day. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2013, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/185 "2013-08-02T15:46:03Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Dude, what is this thing you have with Islam. > > Did some Muslim boyfriend complain that all you were good for was two quick pumps and a tickle afterwards? > . Gee, Ibn, I don’t know. I guess it must be a bad sexual encounter with a Muslim. I mean, what else could it be? What is it about the Holocaust that bothered Jews? Why did the NAACP whine every time a black person was lynched? What was it about the massacre at Amritsar that bothered Indians? I know, Ghandi had bad sex with an English hooker and that is why he was bothered by the massacre. Ibn, if you want to sweep it all under the rug and pretend Islam is not murderously homophobic, go ahead. We don’t want to stain the reputation of the Religion of Peace with ugly facts, now would we? But while you are here, here is some light reading for you. 1. In Iran, 4,000 lesbians and gays have been executed since the 1979 Islamic revolution. Methods of execution include; beheading, chopped in two, stoning to death, burning alive, and being thrown alive from a high building 2. A gay Muslim refugee testifying anonymously before a Canadian gay inquiry explained in 2010 that even in Muslim countries where homosexuality is not illegal, like Jordan, police often “punish” gays by injecting cement into their rectum and letting them die in detention. It is apparently a horrid, painful death. 3. Other testifying refugees said that more “enlightened” Muslim families pay the police to arrest a gay son who later happens to “hang himself” with his belt from a hook conveniently on the ceiling of his cell. 4. April 2005: Gay Iranian who had been persecuted because of his sexuality and had been thrown in jail, shoots and kills himself after his UK asylum appeal is denied 5. October 2005: Two teens held in prison for 14 months and severely beaten, are publicly executed in Edalat (Justice) Square for the crime of homosexuality 6. Gay men are being persecuted, tortured and coerced into undergoing sex reassignment procedures. Transsexuals are being coerced into sex/raped by their surgeons (Paul Canning, LGBT Asylum News, March 2, 2010) I could go on but I think you get my point, Ibn. Where are the Muslim protests? You draw a cartoon of Mohammed and Muslims riot, burn embassies. They arrest and threaten to kill a woman for naming a Teddy Bear “Mohammed”. These poor Muslims were provoked, we are told. Well, Ibn, I am pretty fuckin’ provoked by the murderous antics of mainsteam Muslims against gays, and by your patronizing and condescending assumption that I must have been turned off by a bad experience with a Muslim boyfriend. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2013, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/186 "2013-08-02T17:31:41Z")
Why are you talking about Islam in a thread where you’re pitting the Pope? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2013, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/187 "2013-08-02T17:47:13Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > It contrasts markedly from his predecessor… _“The characteristic concern and good will exhibited by many clergy and religious in their pastoral care for homosexual persons is admirable, and, we hope, will not diminish. Such devoted ministers should have the confidence that they are faithfully following the will of the Lord by encouraging the homosexual person to lead a chaste life and by affirming that person’s God-given dignity and worth. … The God who is at once truth and love calls the Church to minister to every man, woman and child with the pastoral solicitude of our compassionate Lord.”_ - Cardinal Ratzinger, 1986 _“[A]ccording to the teaching of the Church, men and women with homosexual tendencies “must be accepted with respect, compassion and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided”. They are called, like other Christians, to live the virtue of chastity.”_ - Cardinal Ratzinger, 2003 _“Deep-seated homosexual tendencies, which are found in a number of men and women, are also objectively disordered and, for those same people, often constitute a trial. Such persons must be accepted with respect and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. They are called to fulfil God’s will in their lives and to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter.”_ - Pope Benedict XVI, 2005 Exactly what has the new guy said that’s different from what the old guy said? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2013, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/188 "2013-08-02T17:55:33Z")
> [@Lord\_Ashtar](#): > > Why are you talking about Islam in a thread where you’re pitting the Pope? He wasn’t the one who actually brought Islam into the mix. Ibn Warraq, with his nanny boo boo taunt brought it in. (Also, I’m a bit curious if I were to decry how some Muslim nations treat gays and women, would that be ascribed to sexual encounter gone bad, or is that a rhetorical treat saved for gay people?) ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2013, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/189 "2013-08-02T18:08:48Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > He wasn’t the one who actually brought Islam into the mix. Ibn Warraq, with his nanny boo boo taunt brought it in. Fair enough. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2013, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/190 "2013-08-02T19:18:32Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Dude, what is this thing you have with Islam. Islam hates gays, as many religions do, but they seem particularly loathed of them in areas that are predominantly Muslim. This is a topic about the Pope and his opinion on gays, so there’s a bit of an overlap. Can we all just agree that right now, Islam’s a terrible religion for gays and that Muslims are uniquely terrible on their treatment of gays compared to the other big religions? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2013, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/191 "2013-08-02T19:22:17Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Can we all just agree that right now, Islam’s a terrible religion for gays and that Muslims are uniquely terrible on their treatment of gays compared to the other big religions? No, I don’t think we can agree to that. I can agree that Islam seems to be interpreted in a pretty anti-gay way by a lot of adherents, but I don’t think it’s unique, required by the religion, or anything that sets Islam apart from other religions. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2013, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/192 "2013-08-02T19:55:35Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > _“The characteristic concern and good will exhibited by many clergy and religious in their pastoral care for homosexual persons is admirable, and, we hope, will not diminish. Such devoted ministers should have the confidence that they are faithfully following the will of the Lord by encouraging the homosexual person to lead a chaste life and by affirming that person’s God-given dignity and worth. … The God who is at once truth and love calls the Church to minister to every man, woman and child with the pastoral solicitude of our compassionate Lord.”_ - Cardinal Ratzinger, 1986 > > _“[A]ccording to the teaching of the Church, men and women with homosexual tendencies “must be accepted with respect, compassion and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided”. They are called, like other Christians, to live the virtue of chastity.”_ - Cardinal Ratzinger, 2003 > > _“Deep-seated homosexual tendencies, which are found in a number of men and women, are also objectively disordered and, for those same people, often constitute a trial. Such persons must be accepted with respect and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. They are called to fulfil God’s will in their lives and to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter.”_ - Pope Benedict XVI, 2005 > > Exactly what has the new guy said that’s different from what the old guy said? It’s pretty clearly stated in articles such as this one: [http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/30/world/europe/pope-francis-gay-priests.html?hp&\_r=0](http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/30/world/europe/pope-francis-gay-priests.html?hp&_r=0) > [@](#): > > For generations, homosexuality has largely been a taboo topic for the Vatican, ignored altogether or treated as “an intrinsic moral evil,” in the words of the previous pope. > > In that context, brief remarks by Pope Francis suggesting that he would not judge priests for their sexual orientation, made aboard the papal airplane on the way back from his first foreign trip, to Brazil, resonated through the church. Never veering from church doctrine opposing homosexuality, Francis did strike a more compassionate tone than that of his predecessors, some of whom had largely avoided even saying the more colloquial “gay.” > > “If someone is gay and he searches for the Lord and has good will, who am I to judge?” Francis told reporters, speaking in Italian but using the English word “gay.” > > Francis’s words could not have been more different from those of Benedict XVI, who in 2005 wrote that homosexuality was “a strong tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil,” and an “objective disorder.” The church document said men with “deep-seated homosexual tendencies” should not become priests. Where has Francis called gay a moral evil or “objective disorder?” As the pope, that is. And then: > [@](#): > > At a certain point, tone becomes substance if it’s seen as revitalizing the prospects of the church,” said John L. Allen, Jr., a Vatican expert at The National Catholic Reporter. So, I don’t think it’s clear yet that Francis is simply trying to “appear liberal,” and a change in tone could signal the beginning of significant real change. Michelangelo Signorile seems to think Pope Francis is [different from his predecessor too.](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michelangelo-signorile/is-pope-francis-waving-a_b_3442274.html) However, in his former life as Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio, [he was staunchly anti-gay](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/13/pope-francis-gay-marriage-anti_n_2869221.html). Is he truly anti-gay in his heart, or was he sticking to the church’s script, and now he doesn’t have to anymore? We’ll see. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2013, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/193 "2013-08-02T20:02:57Z")
This is the operative phrase from that article, and the one I’ve been trying to emphasize: > [@](#): > > **Never veering from church doctrine opposing homosexuality** , Francis did strike a more compassionate tone than that of his predecessors, some of whom had largely avoided even saying the more colloquial “gay.” He’s not veering from church doctrine. I don’t know how much clearer to state this. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2013, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/194 "2013-08-02T20:04:37Z")
I don’t see his comment as breaking from a script. He’s simply reiterated what they’ve said for a while now. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2013, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/195 "2013-08-02T20:15:00Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > I don’t see his comment as breaking from a script. He’s simply reiterated what they’ve said for a while now. I think it’s remarkable that a pope just being somewhat nice while discriminating against gays is so widely considered shocking. Though it did break slightly from Benedict in the acceptance of gay clergy. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2013, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/196 "2013-08-02T20:18:55Z")
Eh. To be perfectly honest, I sort of liked the ban. It gave me a quick and easy escape when great-aunts and the like started suggesting I join the priesthood. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2013, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/197 "2013-08-02T20:27:40Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Eh. To be perfectly honest, I sort of liked the ban. It gave me a quick and easy escape when great-aunts and the like started suggesting I join the priesthood. The true Gay Agenda finally revealed! ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2013, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/198 "2013-08-02T20:28:16Z")
I find it amusing that he apparently said, “Who am I to judge?” Who is he? He’s the fucking Pope! The Vicar of Christ on fucking Earth! Doesn’t he believe any of that shit? Of course he has to judge the faithful. That’s what Popes do, on matters of faith, morals, all that crap. If the Pope can’t judge Catholics they may as well scrap the office and leave it all to the Big Guy upstairs at the dreadful day of judgment yadda yadda yadda. As for Catholic gays I don’t get it. Why would they even want to be part of such an oppressive and reactionary Church? ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2013, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/199 "2013-08-02T20:32:20Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > This is the operative phrase from that article, and the one I’ve been trying to emphasize: > > He’s not veering from church doctrine. I don’t know how much clearer to state this. I guess you breezed right past the “tone becomes substance” part? Gay priests today, total gay acceptance tomorrow. You never know, but these things grow from the ground up, and acceptance of gay priests can only be healthy for Catholic communities, and hence society in general. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2013, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/200 "2013-08-02T20:33:26Z")
There are a few parishes scattered around that for one reason or another are hotbeds of liberal progressive theology. I assume they mostly go to those churches. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946.md?page=11)