# The Pope's Bullshit attempt to appear liberal about gays! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 30, 2013, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946 "2013-07-30T20:47:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2013, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/201 "2013-08-02T20:38:16Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > I guess you breezed right past the “tone becomes substance” part? Gay priests today, total gay acceptance tomorrow. You never know, but these things grow from the ground up, and acceptance of gay priests can only be healthy for Catholic communities, and hence society in general. You’re assuming that accepting gay priests means their orientation will be general knowledge. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2013, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/202 "2013-08-02T20:41:27Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > I guess you breezed right past the “tone becomes substance” part? Gay priests today, total gay acceptance tomorrow. You never know, but these things grow from the ground up, and acceptance of gay priests can only be healthy for Catholic communities, and hence society in general. I breezed right past it because there have been gay priests forever and I have yet to see some startling change in the RCC. At least one person upthread didn’t even know being gay has ever been a bar to the priesthood. And allowing celibate people of different orientations is pretty fucking pointless when you’re trying to gain acceptance of non-celibate people. You know, feminism has been around for a long time, and the RCC doesn’t call us bitches and hos, but they aren’t exactly clamoring to put women into positions of power. The idea that the church is changing and not the same old obstinate, discriminatory edifice baffles me. I’ll believe that the church is changing its stance on acceptance of homosexuality _when the church changes its stance on acceptance of homosexuality_. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2013, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/203 "2013-08-02T20:48:03Z")
Right. This is not breaking new ground, this is going back to an older default. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2013, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/204 "2013-08-02T21:07:20Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I breezed right past it because there have been gay priests forever and I have yet to see some startling change in the RCC. At least one person upthread didn’t even know being gay has ever been a bar to the priesthood. And allowing celibate people of different orientations is pretty fucking pointless when you’re trying to gain acceptance of non-celibate people. There haven’t been openly gay priests until recently. You were expecting some gay revolution in the church 1900 years ago? Boy, you have high standards. How many gay revolutions have there been worldwide in the last couple millennia? I mean, since there have been gays like, forever. > [@](#): > > You know, feminism has been around for a long time, and the RCC doesn’t call us bitches and hos, but they aren’t exactly clamoring to put women into positions of power. The idea that the church is changing and not the same old obstinate, discriminatory edifice baffles me. Lol. What’s funny is, Pope Francis said pretty exactly that. “We must put women in positions of power.” Or Something like that. You don’t get to be priests though, so popehood is out. > [@](#): > > I’ll believe that the church is changing its stance on acceptance of homosexuality _when the church changes its stance on acceptance of homosexuality_. I don’t blame you. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2013, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/205 "2013-08-02T21:10:40Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > There haven’t been openly gay priests until recently. You were expecting some gay revolution in the church 1900 years ago? Boy, you have high standards. How many gay revolutions have there been worldwide in the last couple millennia? I mean, since there have been gays like, forever. No, I’m saying returning to the bad old days, which is the only thing that Francis is suggesting, is just returning to the bad old days. They might be better than the current bad new days, but they are still just a return to the bad old days. Like I said, he is promoting the same discrimination, couching it in slightly nicer language, and people are acting like it’s gay pride week in the Vatican. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2013, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/206 "2013-08-02T21:17:00Z")
There is no way that “who am I to judge?” is in any way promoting the same discrimination as “homosexuals are moral decay” or whatever the last pope might have said. Nope. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2013, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/207 "2013-08-03T02:45:21Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > He wasn’t the one who actually brought Islam into the mix. Ibn Warraq, with his nanny boo boo taunt brought it in. > > (Also, I’m a bit curious if I were to decry how some Muslim nations treat gays and women, would that be ascribed to sexual encounter gone bad, or is that a rhetorical treat saved for gay people?) No, that’s actually not true. I didn’t “bring Islam into the mix”. He actually brought it into the mix by making the rather loaded comment to me in post #30. > [@](#): > > **Valteron** > One look at the record of Islamic states in hanging, whipping and otherwise torturing gays should be enough to make you hurl yer lunch! It’s also rather obvious the only reason he brought up Islam because I am a Muslim and he wanted an excuse to engage in usually bigoted rants about Islam. I don’t know if you’re terribly familiar with him, but if you look through his posting history and the threads he’s started you’ll notice that he has a long history of being the board’s resident Islamophobe who takes every opportunity he can to take shots at Islam, even when discussing the show _Designing Women_. He’s also a huge fan and supported of the English Defense League, racist hate group that his the UK’s answer to the Aryan nation in the US. He also has a rather weird obsession with me if you’ll look at his history as well which is part of the reason for my reaction. I suspect that if he was as racist towards African-Americans as he is towards Muslims and made a completely out of the blue comment to an African-American poster > [@](#): > > Look at how disgusting all those black african nations treat gays that there’d be a similar reaction. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2013, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/208 "2013-08-03T02:47:46Z")
> [@Lord\_Ashtar](#): > > Fair enough. As mentioned, no, I didn’t bring Islam into the thread. Valteron did. Remember he’s done so many Islamophobic threads that at one point the mods were letting him know he was in danger of being deemed “a one trick pony” and being kicked to the curb. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2013, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/209 "2013-08-03T02:48:32Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > No, that’s actually not true. > > I didn’t “bring Islam into the mix”. > > He actually brought it into the mix by making the rather loaded comment to me in post #30. I’d say you brought it in with your stupid commentary about how you aren’t RC so you don’t care. But I give pretty much not the slightest damn about it, so I’ll happily concede that wasn’t your intent and end the conversation there. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2013, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/210 "2013-08-03T03:14:59Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I’d say you brought it in with your stupid commentary about how you aren’t RC so you don’t care. > > But I give pretty much not the slightest damn about it, so I’ll happily concede that wasn’t your intent and end the conversation there. Excuse me, how exactly did I bring Islam into the thread by saying I didn’t particularly care what the Pope said because I’m not Catholic. If Finn Again had made such a comment would he have been dragging Judaism and Israel into the thread? If one of the Mormon posters had made such a comment would they have dragging Mormonism into the thread? Hell, if a Protestant poster had made such a comment would you be accusing them of dragging Protestantism into the thread. If you want to feel my comment was stupid fair enough but you’re basically saying I brought Islam into the thread simply by making a comment while Muslim. That’s moronic and unless you’d have made similar charge against Jewish/Mormon/fill-in-the-blank posters borders on bigotry. Note, I’m not accusing you of it. I simply think you made a foolish comment without perhaps thinking through the consequences of what you were saying. For what it’s worth, in retrospect, it was more than a little insensitive of me to suggest I didn’t care what an influential figure said about gays because he wasn’t of my religion. My point, badly stated, was that I didn’t see how this would really make life different for gays the way that similar statements might make coming from an Archbishop in Kenya or Peter Akinola in Nigeria would do. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/211 "2013-08-04T05:53:07Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > former Catholic British actor Stepen Fry Nope; Stephen Fry is an atheist Jew who grew up without religion and was never Catholic at any time. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/212 "2013-08-04T05:55:40Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Nope; Stephen Fry is an atheist Jew who grew up without religion and was never Catholic at any time. That makes sense, because he sure doesn’t look Catholic! ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/213 "2013-08-04T08:09:19Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > You’re assuming that accepting gay priests means their orientation will be general knowledge. This. I am willing to bet it’s a “no.” Why? Not many practicing Catholics would be willing to go to a Mass lad by a “fag.” And their attendance is at an all time low, mostly comprised by a fading generation of conservative Catholics who’d been feeding from the same trough for decades on end. Can’t lose them. Or, more to the point, the money they so spiritually give away now… ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/214 "2013-08-04T08:15:01Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > There is no way that “who am I to judge?” is in any way promoting the same discrimination as “homosexuals are moral decay” or whatever the last pope might have said. > > Nope. Please show your work. Namely cite and cite. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/215 "2013-08-04T08:41:40Z")
PS – It is pretty goddamn stupid that some Catholics think this Pope is going to bring down what the Church has always stood for. That said, it is much more likely they’ll quietly fade into irrelevancy – just like they have in Europe. But not in my generation or yours. Too Powerful. It will take some doing considering their [**Colossal Wealth**](http://www.nairaland.com/729658/vaticans-colossal-wealth-started-prosperity). Meanwhile, yeah, give, give, give…but give to US (in our many forms) first. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/216 "2013-08-04T15:03:57Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > This. I am willing to bet it’s a “no.” Why? Not many practicing Catholics would be willing to go to a Mass lad by a “fag.” And their attendance is at an all time low, mostly comprised by a fading generation of conservative Catholics who’d been feeding from the same trough for decades on end. Can’t lose them. Or, more to the point, the money they so spiritually give away now… You appear to be completely wrong on this topic. I know several priests whom 99% of their parishioners presume to be gay and they have full churches each Sunday. As long as they are not hitting on the men on the parish councils or stripping down for Gay Pride parades, most people really don’t care. It is fun to play in stereotypes, but reality tends to be more nuanced. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/217 "2013-08-04T15:24:18Z")
Not everyone everywhere is that enlightened. Please see my post on page 2 (I think) about the RCC in the DR opposing the appointment of a gay US ambassador. The Cardinal of the Dominican RCC was very clear a few years ago that gays would not be accepted in seminaries, this after the scandal of a deacon who was diddling little kids and covered it up by murdering, chopping and stuffing two people into a metal drum. What that had to do with gays beat me. Or are Cardinals not the RCC? ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/218 "2013-08-04T15:39:19Z")
And from the horse’s ass’ mouth: > [@](#): > > He wasn’t nice about it, he wasn’t diplomatic, he wasn’t even charitable, which is the least anybody can expect from a self-proclaimed man of God. > No, for Dominican Cardinal Nicolás de Jesús López Rodríguez, to call James (Wally) Brewster, a gay man nominated as U.S. ambassador to his country, “maricón,” (f----t) at a press conference, wasn’t nice, diplomatic or charitable. > > Read more: [Albor Ruiz: Dominican Cardinal Nicolas de Jesus Lopez Rodriguez criticized for homophobic slur against U.S. ambassador nominee James (Wally) Brewster – New York Daily News](http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/albor-ruiz-dominican-prelate-anti-gay-slur-cardinal-offense-article-1.1392338#ixzz2b10g5gZJ) > [@](#): > > SANTO DOMINGO, Dominican Republic, March 1, 2005 ([CWNews.com/LifeSiteNews.com](http://CWNews.com/LifeSiteNews.com)) - Cardinal Nicolas de Jesus Lopez Rodriguez of Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic, reaffirmed this week that the Church does not discriminate against homosexuals, but that they do not belong in seminaries. The cardinal explained, “I understand we must have a healthy, intelligent, and manly clergy that is neither effeminate nor womanly,” and he recalled that homosexuality is a disorder that can be corrected and managed. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/219 "2013-08-04T16:02:55Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > You appear to be completely wrong on this topic. > > I know several priests whom 99% of their parishioners presume to be gay and they have full churches each Sunday. As long as they are not hitting on the men on the parish councils or stripping down for Gay Pride parades, most people really don’t care. > > It is fun to play in stereotypes, but reality tends to be more nuanced. Your claim is that “most people really don’t care” based on your knowing several priests whose parishioners are okay thinking their priests are gay? That’s silly. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/220 "2013-08-04T16:47:28Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Your claim is that “most people really don’t care” based on your knowing several priests whose parishioners are okay thinking their priests are gay? > > That’s silly. Let me rephrase that, then. I know of no parish that has ever suffered a loss of attendance because their pastor or associate was believed to be gay. Whenever the topic of priestly pedophilia makes the news, there are a number of people on the Far Right, (including one prominent cardinal at the Vatican who always gets quoted on the topic), who try to make a big deal about eliminating homosexuals from the priesthood. All that hoopla gets routinely ignored by the people in the pews. There was a serious effort in the late 1980s and early 1990s by different groups to accuse American seminaries of deliberately ignoring homosexual conduct among seminarians with the intention of keeping up enrollment. Those groups were totally unable to get the attention of either the various bishops or the congregations. Beyond that, Catholics have the highest percentage of church-going people in the U.S. who are willing to accept SSM. (It is not high enough, at around 52%, but it is higher than any other large religious group.) **Red Fury** ’s claim was that Catholics would avoid churches with known homosexual priests. There is no evidence for his speculation and lots of evidence against it. Some Catholics would surely bail out–probably the same percentage that bailed over losing the Latin mass–but there is no evidence that it would be a big deal, in general. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946.md?page=12)