# The Pope's Bullshit attempt to appear liberal about gays! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 30, 2013, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946 "2013-07-30T20:47:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/81 "2013-07-31T20:18:25Z")
Call me crazy but when there’s an organization with millions of members that funds and supports organizations that want to restrict and control me, despite not being a part of them, I like to know what they’re up to. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/82 "2013-07-31T20:20:29Z")
I think a deal could be reached: Those of us who are not Catholic will stop paying attention and those of us who are Catholic will stop trying to affect the world we live in. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/83 "2013-07-31T20:22:48Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Well, one way would be to actually read the published works of the RCC over the last couple of millennia and see the actual statements that were made. (In that way, I knew that Limbo was philosophical speculation based on a specific and not universally accepted interpretation of Scripture even before I entered high school nearly 50 years ago.) > Your response is to make up nonsense that claims the church “dusted off” an “old document” to change its teachings, (what teachings? the ones in the “old document,” perhaps?), simply because you were too lazy to go find out what the actual teaching had been–and then blame the church for your failure to actually read the church documents. > _::: shrug :::_ BTW, Tom, do you know what website would have given me access to 2000 years of published works by the RCC (many in Latin and Greek) for my after-school research, when I was in high school in the 60s? I plead ignorance and laziness, I guess. or maybe I just felt I got enough “Papal Bull” in class!😃 After all, by the time I was in high school my common sense and reason were beginning to suggest that it was all nonsense anyway, so finding out that one after-death destination, Limbo, was not as firmly on the map as say, Purgatory, would have seemed like a bit of a waste of time when my friends were inviting me out after school. What a lazy little monster I was not to have spent my free time pouring over 2000 years of church pronouncements! ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/84 "2013-07-31T20:26:49Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Actually, I think you should probably always simply ignore anything spoken or published by anyone in the RCC. Regardless whether you misunderstand what they said, (a frequent occurrence), or understand them perfectly, (which happens occasionally), it always raises your blood pressure and has no real bearing on either your life or the church. To steal a quote from Mark Twain: It’s not the parts of Catholicism I don’t understand that bother me, it’s the parts I do. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/85 "2013-07-31T20:27:39Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I think a deal could be reached: Those of us who are not Catholic will stop paying attention and those of us who are Catholic will stop trying to affect the world we live in. And that means **no more praying,** mackerel-snappers! You don’t go over our heads to the boss, that’s just weak! :mad: ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/86 "2013-07-31T20:30:33Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes, I suppose a third possibility is: those who instructed you were well aware that the Church’s teaching was that Limbo was simply a theory, but deliberately taught it to you as an established doctrine. > > It’s unclear to me what possible motive they may have had, but I grant you that this is a possibility. I don’t think that **Valteron** was the only one who got the message that Limbo was doctrine. Here’s George Carlin on the subject, [starting at about the 4:10 mark](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qo9kk56q-Ng). ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/87 "2013-07-31T20:56:42Z")
I don’t get it. Isn’t this a step in the right direction? Or is anything short of having a gay pride parade in the vatican just a pretense? If the pope wants to focus on feeding the poor rather than bashing gays, that seems like a good thing. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/88 "2013-07-31T20:57:47Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > And that means **no more praying,** mackerel-snappers! You don’t go over our heads to the boss, that’s just weak! :mad: I will not tolerate disparaging expressions like “mackerel-snappers”. My position as well as that of previous atheists is that Catholic belief alone is NOT a sin. Who am I to judge? Catholics should be integrated in our society (although prudent persons might wish to keep priests away from jobs involving children). It is the **PRACTICE** of Catholicism that constitutes a “grave moral disorder” and an “intrinsic moral evil” and can never be condoned. Just the belief is not a sin. See how liberal I am towards Catholics? Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/89 "2013-07-31T21:03:38Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I don’t get it. Isn’t this a step in the right direction? The Catholic Church used to say that it was not a sin to BE gay, but that anything gays did sexually was a “grave moral disorder” and “an intrinsic moral evil.” Now the position is that it is not a sin to BE gay, but that anything gays do sexually is a “grave moral disorder” and “an intrinsic moral evil.” It is hard to say that this is a step in the right direction when it is so hard to tell if his foot moved at all. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/90 "2013-07-31T21:48:34Z")
Valteron you seem angry. So go take a nice vacation\* and relax. \*I hear the Banff Springs Hotel in the Canadian Rockies is nice. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/91 "2013-07-31T22:04:11Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > Valteron you seem angry. So go take a nice vacation\* and relax. > > \*I hear the Banff Springs Hotel in the Canadian Rockies is nice. I thought insults were the last weapon of the man who has no valid arguments, but I guess one shouldnm’t underestimate condescension. I am not one bit sorry for the position I took about religious books in my hotel room. Ever since then I make a point of asking that religious books be taken out of my room before I get there. Maybe someday hotels will supply Bibles, Korans and Books of Mormon to those who ask for them, instead of just assuming that I want a book that, like the Bible, says to kill gays or, like the Koran, to beat your wife… Maybe if you had been gay-bashed a couple of times in your life you would take a less smug attitude. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/92 "2013-07-31T22:17:58Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > Valteron you seem angry. So go take a nice vacation\* and relax. > > \*I hear the Banff Springs Hotel in the Canadian Rockies is nice. And if I can’t be angry in the BBQ Pit, where the fuck can I? ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/93 "2013-07-31T22:31:01Z")
Of course his foot has not moved at all. From his POV he’s clarifying things to a lot of people who have gone along convinced that they actually teach it’s a sin to BE gay. > [@Valteron](#): > > How is this for a motive: Because at the time the “doctrine that was not a doctrine” of Limbo served to underline the absolute importance of being baptised to get into Heaven. The idea that even innocent babies incapable of sin could not get in without baptism to wash away original sin underlined the majesty and salvation-granting power of the Church and its sacraments, and the universality of original sin. I remember that Limbo was presented in this context by priests and nuns. > [@Valteron](#): > > I doubt if the nuns and priests who delivered the idea really knew the entire pedigree of that concept, so I can’t say they **intentionally** presented it as a doctrine when it was not. > > The reason I doubt it is because they were generally ignorant and stupid people who had put their critical faculties into neutral and were ready to assault with a strap any student who questioned what the Church “said”. Right – Firstly, their priority, at the time, was to make sure you became a good obedient little Catholic, just like they were, no need to delve into theological sophistication, the way to salvation is to submit and obey and not challenge or question, if we let the little heathens see any grey areas, next thing you know they’ll be nailing theses to the church door. No use denying that this was the view of a lot of teachers of the faith for a long time and that the hierarchy did little or nothing to disabuse them of the notion because they themselves liked the idea of an obedient and unquestioning flock. Secondly, add to that how in the “old” RCC, there used to be a lot of priests, brothers and sisters who, in hindsight, should not have been in those posts, but due to whatever social or economic or cultural circumstance at the time wound up in the priesthood or as brothers or sisters of the teaching orders, but just barely trained for it, and took their issues out on their wards. You and many, many others were on the receiving end of this failure of the Church. OTOH at the same time others among us were more fortunate in that we had access to teachers of the faith who had a real calling for it and were not afraid of an intellectually curious generation. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/94 "2013-07-31T22:34:27Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > The Catholic Church used to say that it was not a sin to BE gay, but that anything gays did sexually was a “grave moral disorder” and “an intrinsic moral evil.” > > Now the position is that it is not a sin to BE gay, but that anything gays do sexually is a “grave moral disorder” and “an intrinsic moral evil.” > > It is hard to say that this is a step in the right direction when it is so hard to tell if his foot moved at all. It’s a step in the right direction that he said it. The church is down on all sorts of sins like murder and sex before marriage and divorce etc. Everybody blows that all off because the church doesn’t really rant and rave about it much. It is displeased with abortion. Clinics get bombed. So, saying “who am I to judge?” is basically saying back off the gay attacks. It’s not one of those issues we actually care that much about. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/95 "2013-07-31T22:46:54Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > So, saying “who am I to judge?” is basically saying back off the gay attacks. WOW!!! Why didn’t someone tell me? The Pope is against gay-bashing!!! EXTRA! EXTRA! READ ALL ABOUT IT! POPE DOES NOT APPROVE OF THE CRIME OF ASSAULT AGAINST INNOCENT PEOPLE ON THE STREET! And you wanna tell me that man did not make a revolutionary statement! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/96 "2013-07-31T23:06:08Z")
Limbo stopped being taught, AFAIK, after Vatican II. You said you went to school in the 50s/60s **Valteron** , correct? I went to Catholic school as well, but in the 80s/early 90s, and never even heard about it. In fact, my mother told me SHE was taught that, but they never said a word about it at school, or church, or whatever. They talked a little bit about Purgatory, but not even all that much. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/97 "2013-07-31T23:19:23Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > WOW!!! Why didn’t someone tell me? The Pope is against gay-bashing!!! > > EXTRA! EXTRA! READ ALL ABOUT IT! POPE DOES NOT APPROVE OF THE CRIME OF ASSAULT AGAINST INNOCENT PEOPLE ON THE STREET! > > And you wanna tell me that man did not make a revolutionary statement! :eek: You want he should be vague? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/98 "2013-07-31T23:23:45Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > I don’t get it. They’re not exactly hurting for members. Why even pretend? You sure of that? Becuase the fact is, in Europe churches are half empty and Catholicism losing its hold over the masses more and more. For instance, remember that old bastion of Catholicisn, Spain? well, [**Number of atheists, non-believers increases in Spain**](http://zeenews.india.com/news/world/number-of-atheists-non-believers-increases-in-spain_615709.html). And that is only a reflection of what if happening all over the continent. Think it was a mere “vote” that the first Latin Pope was chosen? I’d say, no, , it had to happen as Latin America and parts of Africa remain the only Catholic dominated regions in the world…and even there, it’s fading. More samples: [**Francis in Rio**](http://guardianlv.com/2013/07/pope-refers-to-the-church-as-cold/): > [@](#): > > The statement where the Pope refers to the church as cold and caught up in itself shows his intention to make changes. But the church still has a long road ahead. With charges of abuse and its stance on gay marriage the Catholic Church has its detractors. Even with Pope Francis making welcome changes it may not be enough to stop people from leaving the church or the general feeling of the Catholic Church as being out of touch with the common masses. It will take the congregation embracing the new pope’s views to begin to turn things around, as even though Francis is pope he still is only one man. [Australia](http://www.brandhook.com/rebranding-the-catholic-church/): > [@](#): > > [ol] > [li]Each month, we ask our experts (strategists, marketers, thought leaders) and the general public on the issue of the month. When posing the question of rebranding the Catholic Church, the questions we received back were whether it needed to be rebranded or something more fundamental. Did the strategy need to be an evolution or a revolution? What was agreed was that the Catholic Church appeared to be going backwards. The introduction of the new mass has polarised parishioners, church attendance is falling and there is a disconnect with the top tier of the church (Rome and the Bishops) and the people in the community. The Problems 1. Declining Church Attendance: The 2006 census identified that 64% of Australians call themselves Christian: 26% identifying themselves as Roman Catholic and 19% as Anglican. As in many Western countries, the level of active participation in church worship is much lower than this; weekly attendance at church services is about 1.5 million, about 7.5% of the population. Despite declining Church attendance, the percentage of the population that describe themselves as Catholic has remained relatively consistent whereas the percentage of Anglican’s has declined significantly.[/li][li]Ageing Priests: Figures published by the Archdiocese of Melbourne, Australia’s largest diocese in terms of number of priests, showed that the average age of diocesan priests on appointment (not including retired priests) had risen from 44 years in 1977 to 60 by 2001. Looking at the diocese of Wilcannia-Forbes, which covers central and western NSW, is home to 33,000 Catholics. There are13 priests within the region with an average age of 69. Add in a dispute between rural priests and the Catholic Church hierarchy and there are questions of sustainability and viability in the future. Attracting / recruiting priests is a whole different piece of research but from the consumer perspective, there’s a desire to consider married priests, female priests or lay preachers. As any brand would do, the first step would be to learn from competitors – what was the impact on attendance from Anglican churches when they allowed women to be ordained in 1992? Did it drive a significant shift?[/li][li]The General Perception of Catholic Church is not positive: There has been a lot written about the Church with stories of pedophilia, undisclosed wealth, ‘spiritual rules’, moral lecturing and a return to a pre Vatican II approach. When we asked our community how they described the Catholic Church today – the key themes were: [/li] > \*Outdated > > \*Too male > > \*Too hierarchal > > - Too rich > > \*Too preachy > > \*Not relevant > > \*Unapologetic > [/ol] That just a very quick overview as I am short on time – but I am pretty sure they are aware they are in trouble and need reforms yesterday if they are to keep (some) of their power with their faithful ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/99 "2013-07-31T23:28:47Z")
> [@Mighty\_Girl](#): > > Maybe now he can send a memo to these guys: > > Catholic groups were organizing a Black Monday, which thankfully everybody else ignored on account of not caring one fuck about the whole thing. > > [Source](http://www.dr1.com) > [Source](http://bigstory.ap.org/article/dominican-groups-reject-gay-us-ambassador-nominee-0) More proof, **marshmallow** , if any was needed. Thanks, **MG**. Best always. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/100 "2013-07-31T23:32:34Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > That just a very quick overview as I am short on time – but I am pretty sure they are aware they are in trouble and need reforms yesterday if they are to keep (some) of their power with their faithful Interesting how the complaints and the percentage who say they need to have some changes are pretty similar to the types of complaints and percentage in the US talking about Republicans.\* I don’t think it’s a coincidence, either. The world is becoming more interconnected and, well, worldly. \*Some saying be more conservative, some less, etc. I’m not saying the specific goals are the same, just that there is this tug of war going on where a large organization faces some tough decisions if it wants to maintain the most relevance. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946.md?page=6)