# The Pope's Bullshit attempt to appear liberal about gays! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 30, 2013, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946 "2013-07-30T20:47:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Hottius\_Maximus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ab097/32.png) [@Hottius\_Maximus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hottius_Maximus)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/101 "2013-07-31T23:51:56Z")
Why would anyone expect the Catholic Church to change its position on something that is expressly forbidden in its theology? Yes I know about the prohibitions on shellfish and other the things that the Catholic hierarchy ignores (I am a Cafeteria Catholic myself and I certainly have issues with the RCC teachings on birth control). That being said, I don’t think Pope Francis is attempting to come off as “liberal” I think he is simply following the biblical admonition to judge not others lest ye be judged thyself. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/102 "2013-08-01T00:43:05Z")
I for one think it was an awesome gesture of kindness and humility and that it is likely that it was not well received within the Church hierarchy. For those who want to rant and rage (mostly rage) about how it isn’t enough and they demand total and complete change RIGHT NOW, get the fuck over yourselves. This is a very ancient institution and it doesn’t change overnight. Please show at least a fraction of the grace this Pope has on the subject. If you insist on screaming in rage, defining your entire life by your pain, then by all means, please continue to do so. Just don’t expect too many people, including myself, to fall all over themselves to assuage you. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotGrrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9dc877/32.png) [@PatriotGrrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotGrrrl)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/103 "2013-08-01T01:02:25Z")
If the Church _did_ make a total and complete change right now, the haters would just say “But you said \, you’re not allowed to change! How dare you change - I HATE YOU JUST THE WAY YOU ARE!” ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/104 "2013-08-01T01:04:53Z")
> [@PatriotGrrrl](#): > > If the Church _did_ make a total and complete change right now, the haters would just say And the people who define themselves by their pain would continue to define themselves by their pain. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/105 "2013-08-01T01:08:08Z")
> [@Hottius\_Maximus](#): > > That being said, I don’t think Pope Francis is attempting to come off as “liberal” I think he is simply following the biblical admonition to judge not others lest ye be judged thyself. As Jon Oliver remarked on TDS last night: “‘Who am I to judge?’ You’re the effin’ **Pope!** You have two jobs: Wear a funny hat, and judge everybody else in the whole world!” ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/106 "2013-08-01T01:43:26Z")
> [@PatriotGrrrl](#): > > If the Church _did_ make a total and complete change right now, the haters would just say “But you said \, you’re not allowed to change! How dare you change - I HATE YOU JUST THE WAY YOU ARE!” Yep. And that liberal Christians are hypocrites, the Pope is just pandering, he doesn’t REALLY know what God wants, blah blah blah. Can’t win for losing. I mean, what do you expect? Seriously, the church still hasn’t even changed their stance on birth control. _Birth control_. (But then, I grew up after Vatican II, so maybe I was exposed to more liberal theology. Who knows?) ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/107 "2013-08-01T01:48:37Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > For those who want to rant and rage (mostly rage) about how it isn’t enough and they demand total and complete change RIGHT NOW, get the fuck over yourselves. This is a very ancient institution and it doesn’t change overnight. Please show at least a fraction of the grace this Pope has on the subject. If you insist on screaming in rage, defining your entire life by your pain, then by all means, please continue to do so. Just don’t expect too many people, including myself, to fall all over themselves to assuage you. Just what do you think the church has changed via Francis’s statement? One guy said something slightly less hurtful than the previous pope. That’s it. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/108 "2013-08-01T02:07:07Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Yep. And that liberal Christians are hypocrites, the Pope is just pandering, he doesn’t REALLY know what God wants, blah blah blah. Can’t win for losing. > > I mean, what do you expect? Seriously, the church still hasn’t even changed their stance on birth control. _Birth control_. (But then, I grew up after Vatican II, so maybe I was exposed to more liberal theology. Who knows?) You’re trying to show how they just can’t win for losing because if they change, gosh, they’ll just be attacked. And you demonstrate that by showing they don’t change. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/109 "2013-08-01T02:16:27Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > As Jon Oliver remarked on TDS last night: “‘Who am I to judge?’ You’re the effin’ **Pope!** You have two jobs: Wear a funny hat, and judge everybody else in the whole world!” It was a (somewhat) funny line, but it has no bearing on reality. Judging people is not part of any valid description of the pope’s job. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/110 "2013-08-01T02:34:21Z")
> [@PatriotGrrrl](#): > > If the Church _did_ make a total and complete change right now, the haters would just say “But you said \, you’re not allowed to change! How dare you change - I HATE YOU JUST THE WAY YOU ARE!” I do not hate Catholics or the Church. It is NOT a sin to be a Catholic or believe like a Catholic. It is simply the PRACTICE of Catholicism that is a “grave moral disorder” and an “inherent moral evil”. As long as you don’t actually practice the Catholic religion it is OK to be a Catholic. Do you consider that a bigoted statement on my part? So how come the Catholic Church gets a pass when it says that about gays? Is it because I don’t wear a funny hat? ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/111 "2013-08-01T02:54:40Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > I for one think it was an awesome gesture of kindness and humility and that it is likely that it was not well received within the Church hierarchy. > > For those who want to rant and rage (mostly rage) about how it isn’t enough and they demand total and complete change RIGHT NOW, get the fuck over yourselves. This is a very ancient institution and it doesn’t change overnight. Please show at least a fraction of the grace this Pope has on the subject. If you insist on screaming in rage, defining your entire life by your pain, then by all means, please continue to do so. Just don’t expect too many people, including myself, to fall all over themselves to assuage you. When the fuck from my OP on did I ask you to assuage me, Chimera? You and the Catholic Church can go screw yourselves. I have not asked the Roman Catholic Church to change nor do I expect it to. It is a bastion of reaction, conservatism and marginalization of those who fall outside its range of approval. Whether the victims of the Crusades, 200,000 old women burned as witches, Spanish Republicans in the 1930s or heretics tortured and burned. It is an ancient institution? So what? So is the Klu Klux Klan. So was the Inquisition. At least the previous Popes made no secret of their contempt and disgust for homosexuality. The Catholic Church uses its power and enormous wealth to fight against gay rights in country after country. This Pope is pretending to be conciliatory when the basic doctrine has not changed a jot, which is why I consider him a hypocrite and a wolf in sheep’s clothing. At least his predecessors hated us with a good, clean hate. Defined by my pain? What the fuck does that mean, apart from the fact that you have a talent for pop psychology? All I want from the Catholic Church is to stay as far away from it as possible, and not to have to support its brainwashing apparatus in the form of tax-supported RC separate schools such as they have in Ontario, Canada. (Thank goodness Quebec got rid of RC Schools!) ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/112 "2013-08-01T02:56:51Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > Whether the victims of the Crusades, 200,000 old women burned as witches I first read that as “200,000 year old women burned as witches” and thought, “Well, they’ve got something eerie going on.” ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/113 "2013-08-01T02:59:35Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > And the people who define themselves by their pain would continue to define themselves by their pain. And those who hound those who are hurt by bigots will continue to hound those who were hurt by bigots. I can do it, too! Come back when you’ve got something meaningful to say. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/114 "2013-08-01T03:18:09Z")
My definition of a liberal/gay Catholic: If a Pope said that gays should be hanged, burned and their ashes buried in an unmarked grave, he would note with great satisfaction in the fact that the Holy Father did not ask that they be tortured first, and would celebrate this wonderful new Christian development by attending mass and giving his beloved church a huge donation. Then he would tell us he is working from “within” (wink, wink). ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/115 "2013-08-01T03:25:12Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Yep. And that liberal Christians are hypocrites, the Pope is just pandering, he doesn’t REALLY know what God wants, blah blah blah. Can’t win for losing. > > I mean, what do you expect? Seriously, the church still hasn’t even changed their stance on birth control. _Birth control_. (But then, I grew up after Vatican II, so maybe I was exposed to more liberal theology. Who knows?) Ah, yes, Vatican II! First you get down on your knees, Fiddle with your rosaries, Bow your head with great respect, And genuflect, genuflect, genuflect! Do whatever steps you want, if You have cleared them with the Pontiff. Everybody say his own Kyrie eleison, Doin’ the Vatican Rag! – Tom Lehrer ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/116 "2013-08-01T03:26:56Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > I do not hate Catholics or the Church. It is NOT a sin to be a Catholic or believe like a Catholic. It is simply the PRACTICE of Catholicism that is a “grave moral disorder” and an “inherent moral evil”. As long as you don’t actually practice the Catholic religion it is OK to be a Catholic. In that case, a great many Catholics are sinless! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Jamicat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c67d28/32.png) [@Jamicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jamicat)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/117 "2013-08-01T03:53:21Z")
I feel all religions should have a “No condone/condemn” clause for a lot of things that aren’t specifically called out in their “book”. One of those things are same sex relations. It was a brave move for a POPE to not outright condemn same sex relations. It’s a small move in the right direction for the Catholic Church. Be blessed that you were here during the time that your cause has been acknowledged formally from the top. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/118 "2013-08-01T04:01:22Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I don’t think Francis is saying anything that wasn’t already doctrine in the RCC, except the part about allowing gay priests. When were gay people not allowed to become priests/nuns/brothers? My understanding from looking into the religious life over the past maybe 15 years is that you need to be mature in your understanding of your sexuality but orientation didn’t matter. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/119 "2013-08-01T04:02:57Z")
> [@Jamicat](#): > > I feel all religions should have a “No condone/condemn” clause for a lot of things that aren’t specifically called out in their “book”. > > One of those things are same sex relations. > > It was a brave move for a POPE to not outright condemn same sex relations. That would be brave, perhaps, but it didn’t happen. He didn’t condemn same sex _orientations_. Orientation and relations are not the same thing. This differs from Benedict only because Benedict said that gays shouldn’t be priests. Francis is okay with gay priests. Priests are, after all, supposed to be celibate. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/120 "2013-08-01T04:06:45Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > When were gay people not allowed to become priests/nuns/brothers? My understanding from looking into the religious life over the past maybe 15 years is that you need to be mature in your understanding of your sexuality but orientation didn’t matter. Benedict said that people with “deep seated homosexual tendencies” were gravely disordered and should not be accepted into seminaries. [http://www.vatican.va/roman\_curia/congregations/ccatheduc/documents/rc\_con\_ccatheduc\_doc\_20051104\_istruzione\_en.html](http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccatheduc/documents/rc_con_ccatheduc_doc_20051104_istruzione_en.html) > [@](#): > > Deep-seated homosexual tendencies, which are found in a number of men and women, are also objectively disordered and, for those same people, often constitute a trial. Such persons must be accepted with respect and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. They are called to fulfil God’s will in their lives and to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter[8]. > > In the light of such teaching, this Dicastery, in accord with the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, believes it necessary to state clearly that the Church, while profoundly respecting the persons in question[9], cannot admit to the seminary or to holy orders those who practise homosexuality, present deep-seated homosexual tendencies or support the so-called “gay culture”[10]. > > Such persons, in fact, find themselves in a situation that gravely hinders them from relating correctly to men and women. One must in no way overlook the negative consequences that can derive from the ordination of persons with deep-seated homosexual tendencies. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946.md?page=7)