# The Pope's Bullshit attempt to appear liberal about gays! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 30, 2013, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946 "2013-07-30T20:47:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/121 "2013-08-01T04:31:02Z")
Pope Francis He’s the hip young Pope who can really talk to the young! I’m surprised he doesn’t go around with an acoustic guitar. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/122 "2013-08-01T04:48:10Z")
It’s interesting he made these comments to journalists on the plane ride back from Brazil. Brazil has or is becoming a gay mecca, with upwards of 20% of the population surveying as gay or bi. I believe the CC has been losing ground to other Christian denominations and plain ol’ atheists there. Does anyone know if he addressed any gay issues while actually in Brazil? Maybe he’s realizing just how gay his clergy is. Suppressing them hasn’t been working. Maybe embracing all those nice young good-looking gay priestlings isn’t such a bad idea. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/123 "2013-08-01T04:52:17Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Does anyone know if he addressed any gay issues while actually in Brazil? Maybe he’s realizing just how gay his clergy is. Their workspaces are lavishly overdecorated, they sing on the job, and they wear dresses! **DUH!** ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/124 "2013-08-01T05:49:16Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > You’re trying to show how they just can’t win for losing because if they change, gosh, they’ll just be attacked. And you demonstrate that by showing they don’t change. No. I’m saying they’ll be attacked no matter what. (Not that I care) I THINK they should change, yes. But some people just like to bitch no matter what. At least in the Pit. > [@Valteron](#): > > My definition of a liberal/gay Catholic: If a Pope said that gays should be hanged, burned and their ashes buried in an unmarked grave, he would note with great satisfaction in the fact that the Holy Father did not ask that they be tortured first, and would celebrate this wonderful new Christian development by attending mass and giving his beloved church a huge donation. Then he would tell us he is working from “within” (wink, wink). Okay, now you’re just being an asshole. ---
**Author:** ![Hottius\_Maximus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ab097/32.png) [@Hottius\_Maximus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hottius_Maximus)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/125 "2013-08-01T12:14:33Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > I do not hate Catholics or the Church. It is NOT a sin to be a Catholic or believe like a Catholic. It is simply the PRACTICE of Catholicism that is a “grave moral disorder” and an “inherent moral evil”. As long as you don’t actually practice the Catholic religion it is OK to be a Catholic. > > Do you consider that a bigoted statement on my part? So how come the Catholic Church gets a pass when it says that about gays? Is it because I don’t wear a funny hat? There is nothing scriptural that comes close to what you just wrote hence your statement makes no comparison; that being said, whether or not you believe in the validity of the Holy Scriptures is your business, so you are free to accept or reject it. Since you obviously have a problem with the RCC and choose not to be a part of it, why do you even care about the pronouncements of Pope Francis? It sounds like they wouldn’t affect you one way or the other? ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/126 "2013-08-01T14:04:45Z")
Then you haven’t been reading. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/127 "2013-08-01T14:14:06Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Come back when you’ve got something meaningful to say. Go fuck yourself. I have as much to say as you do. I’m just less of an arrogant prick about my opinions than you are. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/128 "2013-08-01T14:20:40Z")
Yeah, that’s clearly not true unless someone else wrote #102 ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/129 "2013-08-01T14:29:00Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > No. I’m saying they’ll be attacked no matter what. (Not that I care) First, based on what? You think the people who want them to liberalize _because they are hurting real, live gay people every single day_ would complain if they changed? You think the people who want them to liberalize _because they are hurting real, live women every single day_ would complain if they changed? Those are the people who would complain? Or are you trying to say that someone, somewhere would complain? Because if it’s the former, show me some evidence. And if it’s the latter, who the fuck cares? And if YOU don’t care, why in the hell did you come into a thread where real, live gay people are suffering from the actions of the church and act like that’s no big deal? You’re doing the very thing you are accusing others of doing: Whining around when it doesn’t matter to you. Of course, it does matter to some of us. _We’re being hurt by it._ ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/130 "2013-08-01T14:30:03Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Go fuck yourself. I have as much to say as you do. I’m just less of an arrogant prick about my opinions than you are. I really think you’re having a Vizzini moment right there. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/131 "2013-08-01T14:54:47Z")
> [@Hottius\_Maximus](#): > > There is nothing scriptural that comes close to what you just wrote hence your statement makes no comparison; that being said, whether or not you believe in the validity of the Holy Scriptures is your business, so you are free to accept or reject it. Since you obviously have a problem with the RCC and choose not to be a part of it, why do you even care about the pronouncements of Pope Francis? It sounds like they wouldn’t affect you one way or the other? If people ought to keep their friggin’ noses out of what does not affect them, do you want to talk about the RC Church? : The Church launches campaigns, reads pastoral letters, lobbies politicians etc. to oppose marriage rights for same-sex couples. They oppose civil marriage for gays, even though the Church does not recognize civil marriage. “_It sounds like they wouldn’t affect you one way or the other_?” Go figure. And although NOBODY has ever forced the RC Church to marry gays (or divorced catholics or anyone else) by fighting ssm the RC Church deny the right of some Churches and Synagogues who accept gay marriage to perform such ceremonies. It seems to me that your question about what do I care should be asked of the Catholics. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/132 "2013-08-01T14:58:42Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > Pope Francis > > He’s [the hip young Pope who can really talk to the young!](http://www.gocomics.com/doonesbury/1972/01/10) > I’m surprised he doesn’t go around with an acoustic guitar. Link added, because I caught that reference. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/133 "2013-08-01T15:22:02Z")
Look at it this way: Nobody’s ever gonna say “Lighten up, Francis!” to **this** one. He’s way ahead of you in regard to lightening-up – certainly way ahead of **Valteron.** ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/134 "2013-08-01T15:26:19Z")
The Pope’s much-heralded statement: \*\*“If someone is gay and he searches for the Lord and has goodwill, who am I to judge?” \*\*is another example of how skilled these people are at making statements that sound like more than they are. Let’s just look at that statement, shall we? I do not pretend to know what Pope Francis had in mind when he made the statement. But here is an interpretation of the sentence that would be 100% in keeping with existing RC doctrine and which would not constitute a change in any way. But it looks as if it is an accepting statement, and the media were certainly sucked in (pardon the pun.) Start with the fact that RC doctrine is basically: It is all right to be homosexually oriented as long as you do nothing. Then it is an intrinsic moral evil. \*“If someone is gay and he searches for the Lord and has goodwill” \* translates as “If someone who is gay-oriented (a Catholic layman or maybe a candidate to the priesthood) is willing to accept the Church’s doctrine concerning his sexuality and the total condemnation of any gay activity.” In other words all the Pope is saying is that he cannot judge if an individual is sincere in his acceptance of the Church’s total condemnation of gay sex. BIG FUCKIN’ HAIRY DEAL!!! I never thought he could read minds anyhow. But his doctrine has not changed one iota, has it? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/135 "2013-08-01T15:30:56Z")
> [@Hottius\_Maximus](#): > > Since you obviously have a problem with the RCC and choose not to be a part of it, why do you even care about the pronouncements of Pope Francis? It sounds like they wouldn’t affect you one way or the other? The Roman Catholic Church routinely tries to impose their morals on secular institutions. (This unfortunately makes them far from unique among influential Christian denominations, movements, etc., notably evangelical Protestants and Mormons in addition to the RCC.) So it’s hard not to care about which way the RCC is going at a given point in time, because it’s going to affect whether they work and play well with others. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/136 "2013-08-01T15:31:10Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Look at it this way: Nobody’s ever gonna say “Lighten up, Francis!” to **this** one. He’s way ahead of you in regard to lightening-up – certainly way ahead of **Valteron.** Since we are discussing whether the Pope was just making statements designed to sound more tolerant than they are, my alleged lightness or heaviness has nothing to do with it. Just for the record, I have never opposed to right of Catholics to marry but they oppose mine. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/137 "2013-08-01T15:41:47Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > . . . . why in the hell did you come into a thread where real, live gay people are suffering from the actions of the church and act like that’s no big deal? You’re doing the very thing you are accusing others of doing: Whining around when it doesn’t matter to you. Of course, it does matter to some of us. _We’re being hurt by it._ Good point, jsgoddess: Gays do not oppose the right of Catholics to marry. They do not oppose the right of the RC Church to refuse to marry same-sex couples, or divorced Catholics. We do not call for discrimination against Catholics, Muslims or Mormons or evengelical Protestants. But organizations in these religions lobby politicians and spend money (look at everything the RC Church and Mormons did to fight SSM in California) to deny rights to gays and lesbians. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/138 "2013-08-01T16:02:38Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > Since we are discussing whether the Pope was just making statements designed to sound more tolerant than they are, my alleged lightness or heaviness has nothing to do with it. Just for the record, I have never opposed to right of Catholics to marry but they oppose mine. You are missing the point. Regardless of whether he was “making statements designed to sound more tolerant than they are” or not, it is indisputable that lightening up – by comparison with previous pontificates and by comparison with the hitherto center-of-gravity of the Church’s general culture – is exactly what he was trying to **do** here. Go thou and do likewise. ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/139 "2013-08-01T16:28:03Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > \*“If someone is gay and he searches for the Lord and has goodwill” \* translates as “If someone who is gay-oriented (a Catholic layman or maybe a candidate to the priesthood) is willing to accept the Church’s doctrine concerning his sexuality and the total condemnation of any gay activity.” Well, I guess if you get to make up translations for someone else’s statements that say what you want to criticize them for saying, it does simplify the arguing process. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946/140 "2013-08-01T16:28:11Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > You are missing the point. Regardless of whether he was “making statements designed to sound more tolerant than they are” or not, it is indisputable that lightening up – by comparison with previous pontificates and by comparison with the hitherto center-of-gravity of the Church’s general culture – is exactly what he was trying to **do** here. Oh well, if it is indisputable I guess there is no point in discussing! :rolleyes: But do you admit there is a difference between lightening up and making statements designed to look as if you are lightening up, in order to placate the increasing number of fair-minded people who are starting to be revolted by the RC Church’s bigoted position that all homosexual actions are intrinsically evil? All the Pope really said was “I can’t judge if an individual who says he accepts our ‘all-gay-sex-is-evil’ position is sincere or not.” So he admits he can’t read minds. I never thought he could. He is clever enough to know that the media and many tolerant people will see that as some major “lightening up.” You have apparently swallowed it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-popes-bullshit-attempt-to-appear-liberal-about-gays/664946.md?page=8)