The Post-Antibiotic Age?

Another physician, and a chief sinner, weighing in…

On the Post Antibiotic Era question: Nah. I’m pretty sure we’ll figger it out. We’ll bumble through. But it will be unnecessarily expensive…then again; so is the rest of medicine. For what it’s worth, I still recall vividly my very first antibiotic lecture in med school. The topic: How antibiotics are becoming obsolete because of overuse and development of resistance. That was in the 1970s. This is not to minimize the problem, but simply to point out that we are great at finding interesting angles to complicated issues, and Danger Danger Danger to Mankind is always an interesting angle, be it AGW, Terrorism, MAD, Big Comets or Germs. Of course, someone will eventually be able to say, “Told ya!”

On the sinner front. 30 years, give or take, of prescribing; much of it in the ED. Plenty of personal sin to report, which is why I am reluctant to criticize.

I used to be more of a purist, but as it turns out, it pretty much isn’t worth it. I could give a very interesting and persuasive lecture, I think, on not treating most (almost all) suspected Otitis Media with antibiotics. I could wax on for quite a bit about how suspected Strep Throat probably isn’t, and how without using serial anti-streptolysin O levels, I’m unimpressed that your “Strep Test” was positive, given the carrier rate for asymptomatic strep. I could carry on about how injectable penicillin is the real gold standard for treatment; how you are not really allergic to penicllin, and how weak is the evidence that antibiotics reduce the incidence of post-streptococcal glomerulonephritis; how infrequent is the incidence of rheumatogenic strains of strep; and how self-limited is strep pharyngitis…I could go on.

But…I don’t have time to teach a patient medicine, and it turns out that most of colleagues don’t either. I’m not sure it’s easy to get across the topics and their nuances within an hour, much less 15 minutes. And I am actually pretty darn good at communicating with patients. Worse, “patient satisfaction,” score reporting, and any number of other drivers conspire to make a patient’s request fairly high on the totem pole of what should really be a medical decision. It doesn’t take very many pissed off moms getting an antibiotic the following morning from their pediatrician to cure an ED physician of her desire to educate the world on appropriate antibiotic use. And to make matters worse, patients often come in internet-educated just enough to know that amox is only a “go-away” potion, and one should really ask for “the white stuff” (zithromycin, say).

It’s kind of a mess, and the giant conspiracy among us physicians to blow off patients with a prescription while the pharmaceutical giants send us to Bermuda only makes it worse…

What I end up doing is handing many a patient a prescription and suggesting they not fill it unless they substantially worsen, or unless a followup call with their physician suggests they take the antibiotic. Very weasly of me, I know. But there’s my confession.

It’s a real pleasure to get the occasional patient bright enough to understand the concepts with reasonable enough rapidity, and trustworthy enough to execute an appropriate decision. We need more Dopers, and fewer regular polloi, visiting the ED.

I readily admit that you are in a tougher position in the ED CP. My first time explaining it is an investment as I am going to see them again and the next time it goes a bit easier. Plus more and more of all SES have heard of this by now and are less resistant (and sometimes appreciative of) a little stinginess with the antibiotic sauce. My office partners are all on the same page so we have each others’ backs with consistent messaging. And of course we are not complete walls. We have Ellen Wald’s weak “sinusitis” criteria that justifies us treating (when we feel weak) a whole bunch of crap, and with Augmentin no less, that would probably be better left alone.

Really? Dang that damn guideline advises treating a whole bunch that we try to hold off on. 10 days staying the same of cough or nasal symptoms? That’s a lot of colds that would get better with or without meds and slight post-viral bronchospasm. Any time it gets worse, like when there is a new cold on top of an old one? Just 3 days (!?) of fever and purulent nasal discharge? That’s many many colds. She did not help the cause I can tell you that. Give persistent symptoms the full 14 days and the fever into day 4 at least. Worsening at day 10 fine.

I’m happy that you at least have our back enough to be telling them to wait unless it gets worse and to call us to discuss.

Funny, the doc I had when I was in hospital figured I really wasn’t allergic to penicillin too, until he had to deal with the anaphylaxis it caused [and I was entirely thankful my airways slammed shut while I was in hospital … at the time I was living about a 45 minute response time from EMS and didn’t have an epi-pen. I wouldn’t have lived.] I expect my medical professionals to listen to me when I say I have issues with a medication. I may have been 16 at the time, and an emancipated minor so no “adult” came to the hospital with me, but really … :rolleyes:

I personally prefer avoiding antibiotics and really do agree that most moms have no clue about the disservice they are doing to little princess by insisting on antibiotics for every sniffle - but given my annual bouts of pneumonia for better than a decade I got really good at judging bacterial versus viral versus stress induced pneumonia. Being annoyingly prone to picking up strep at the drop of a hat didn’t help either.:frowning:

The problem with “Eh, science will sort it out” is that the world is a lot bigger than just us. There are a lot of very poor people out there who have an extremely high disease burden, and can just barely afford basic antibiotics. Even if they discover a good replacement for antibiotics, chances are that it will be out of reach for a good chunk of earth’s population. So we end up with a lot of really pointless death, and the economic impact that comes from that. We also end up with a nice Petri dish for gnarlier strains to develop. So even if you figure you’ll be fine, spare a thought for those who don’t have access to cutting edge medicine and do your part to keep antibiotics useful for as long as possibe.

I am hoping this is just a reference to over-diagnosis and not a statement of fact.
My Dad’s heart stopped 10 minutes after having IV penicillin and it took some time for him to be resuscitated. My infant son’s UTI responded to penicillin by having his temperature shoot up to 44°C and developing an angry rash over his entire body. (Both symptoms subsided the moment a change was made to his antibiotic.)

Me – I am normally pretty un-phased by such things but to anyone who asks I tell them no on the penicillin drugs. With my family history I think it is reasonable. As it turns out, I haven’t had any antibiotics for at least 30 years and probably longer than that.
[/personal anecdote and hijack]

The problem is the many people who report allergies to a medication that isn’t really an “allergy”, but an intolerance. You would be amazed at how many people report an allergy to a medication, but have had the exact same class of medication a bunch of times since then. They though the slightest side effect was an allergy, while it wasn’t a “true” allergy.

We see this all the time with people reporting codeine as an allergy, they had itching… That is not an allergy, that is a side effect… but they keep reporting codeine as an allergy while they are receiving regular prescription for hydrocodone.

In pharmacy, if you report an allergy, and you have something related, we will first look to see if you’ve had it before. If not, we’ll tell you there is a possible cross reaction and try to find out what reaction you had, to see if it is a “true” allergy.

In doctor or hospitals, they will ask for allergies, and normally ask what type of reaction you had. If you know 100% you are truely allergic (as in nothing at all related, anaphlaxis, or other MAJOR reaction), say you have a “true allergy”.

80 to 90% of all reported penicillin allergy is false. Yes we err on the side of caution but a good history can tell some of the those apart from the 10 to 20% who really have one.

BTW a family history of even severe allergy to a particular medicine is good reason perhaps to want to avoid all medicines when possible but does not incease the risk of any one medicine over any other.

The weirdest thing I ever saw on a patient’s allergy list? Enemas. Yeah, I’m probably allergic to those too. :stuck_out_tongue: :smack: However, a nurse did point out that the patient may have been allergic to the plastic in a Fleet’s Enema bottle. That makes my nether regions cramp up just thinking about it.

I’m allergic to Cipro. ZOMG, I was covered with hives. Not a fun experience, and I had to really persuade my doctor not to give me Avelox, another fluoroquinolone, earlier this year when I had a recurrent sinus infection. He prescribed Biaxin instead, and that wasn’t much fun either. I gained weight during the 10 days I was on it, because I was constantly sucking on hard candy to reduce the foul taste that came from the INSIDE of my tongue. It appears to have kicked that infection’s butt, however, because it hasn’t come back. How can I tell when it’s a sinus infection and not a cold? There’s a little pimple that pops up on the underside of my left nostril. Strange, but true.

The people who say they’re allergic to all pain meds except Vicodin or Demerol? They’re known as GOMERs: Get Out Of My Emergency Room. It’s a sure-fire sign that they’re a drug addict.

Many people say they’re allergic to this or that drug because it gave them side effects. If it’s serious enough, and documented, we’ll list it as an allergy with comments.

Some people have allergies or intolerances to excipient ingredients. One of my FBFs was diagnosed with celiac sprue a while back and must follow a gluten-free diet, and was shocked at how many of her prescriptions contained gluten. Other people are allergic (or otherwise intolerant) to dyes or binders; one of the few things a pharmacist will use a PDR for besides a doorstop :stuck_out_tongue: is looking up excipients, because they are listed there.

Of course there is anaphylaxis to penicillin.

There are also a lot of folks who think they have an allergy but do not.

A full discussion would distract the thread, but the point I was feebly making is that folks have all kinds of reasons to get the “better” (broader spectrum) antibiotic even in cases like true acute streptococcal pharyngitis where injectable penicillin remains the gold standard of care.

The OP question was around the technical point of whether or not antibiotics would become obsolete (I think); not whether or not it should be socially acceptable to find more expensive ways to deliver medical care.

But thank you for the reminder to be be kind to those who have less. FWIW I believe that I have lived my life in such a way as to give back. Not that it matters, but it hasn’t even been a month since I came back from my most recent trip as a volunteer physician on a medical team to an under-served part of the third world, paid out of my own over-lined pocket. Now you know the reason my surly insensitive comments were absent last month. (Just sayin’ sven; you might be surprised with some of your default assumptions about the Pedant. A certain abruptness here on the Dope is not a summary of my life paradigms.)

Hear, hear. It’s amazing how one can make a single comment or observation and get automatically pigeon-holed around here sometimes. Kudos on your good works. The most I can really do is make the occasional donation to Médecins Sans Frontières and a few other charities. :slight_smile:

I am sure you are a great person with a heart of gold, Chief.

My schtick is malaria. In large swathes of sub-Saharan Africa, malaria is a chronic condition, causing untold human suffering and devastating economic repercussions. It kills in a scale that is comparable to AIDS. Right now it is usually easily curable thanks to what is basically a magic bullet drug. I’ve taken it myself, and I don’t doubt that’s why I’m alive to be on this message board.

But pockets of resistance to this drug are showing up in Thailand. The cause is counterfeit drugs that contain just enough active ingredient to test positive, but not enough to be curative- a perfect scenario to create resistance. In Thailand, this is inconvenient. The strains of malaria in the region are terrible, but not likely to kill many. The same can’t be said for sub-Saharan Africa, where some of the predominant strains can kill you within 48 hours. So basically, if this resistance starts showing up in Africa (which seems like just a matter of time), the potential is terrifying.

Another example is drug-resistance TB. Years ago, the rule was to spare no expense curing TB in the first world, but to use cost-effective simple antibiotics as a first treatment in the developing world. This was a terrible mistake, as it turned the developing world in to a lab for TB resistance, which has now spread around the world and is a growing heath threat.

Technology is wonderful, but it needs to be combined with good public heath practice. I am not sure that the problem is individual doctors. I think counterfeit drugs are probably a bigger threat. But just because we might be okay (for now) is not a good reason to be blade about drug resistance. We’ve already seen some worst-case scenarios popping up.

Isn’t this a case where removing the disease vector is better than treating infections? take the Panama Canal-Panama was one of the most unhealthy places in the world-till Dr. Gorgas cleaned it up. Malaria will never be conquered by treating people with drugs-it will only disappear when we cease allowing its vectors to breed.

So, god bless DDT?

:rolleyes:

Malaria control is great, but it requires a degree of organization that is not present in the most affected countries at this time. It requires large-scale swamp drainage, as well as small scale house-by-house elimination of all standing water. This often means low-flying planes over each and every house spotting every forgotten bucket and backyard puddle. A country like, say, the Central African Republic just isn’t going to have the resources or political control to achieve that right now. Indeed, to achieve WHOs recommended malaria recommendations, we need about 325 million more dollars dedicated to it. And that’s money that isn’t going to appear any time soon.

Artemisinin-based combination therapies won’t eliminate malaria any more than chemotherapy will eliminate cancer. But it does save countless lives. In 2011, 278 million courses were administered. That is a lot of death, and a lot of lost productivity, avoided. The loss of ACTs would be devastating.

Anyway, it’s not a hopeless situation. Public health experts are learning more about malaria every day. I just read a study the other day showing that once a country reaches the point where household sizes are smaller than four people, malaria drops significantly as family members become less likely to transmit it to each other while they sleep. Of course, it’s a bit of a catch 22 as people in malaria prone areas often have “extra” children, knowing that they will likely lose several children to malaria. Anyway, we’ll hopefully figure it out. But in the meantime, it’s really something to have the drug that makes malaria not kill you be effective.

What about the driver high on Oxycontin that runs over your uncle?

Oxycodone is not psychoactive or mood-altering. Its side effects may include fatigue and/or dizziness, but you can get that from a 14-hour shift and/or too much of that chunky red chutney. It is vanishingly likely that your uncle’s misfortune could realistically be attributed to using it. Look it up.

So I just read about the preliminary reguatory proposal called “FDA Guidance #213” …

Trying to find out more however it seems that some are concerned that this well intended regulation might end up doing very little.

Not sure what I think about this and while I do feel the rampant indiscriminant use of antibiotics by the food industry does need to clamped down on (73% of all antibiotics sold in the US destined for animal use!?!) I don’t agree with the Science editorialist who lets us docs off so easy. It is not either/or; it is both. I hope it gets finalized and hope that it is implemented in a manner that does not allow for the back door to continued or even wider food industry antibiotic use that some are worried about.

A scary CDC report for anyone interested. From March