# The President can rule by decree. WTF??? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 31, 2007, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297 "2007-01-31T18:38:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297/41 "2007-01-31T22:33:25Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Pretty darn sneaky, **John** , the ol’ bait and switch. Lure us in here for a good old fashioned bashing, then it turns out to be about Vladimir Illyich Chavez. [/quote] Who, me? 🆒 > [@](#): > > Whats worrying about Chavez is not so much his socialism, but this anti-Americanism. What’s worrying about it is that it seems to work. Eh. His anti-Americanism isn’t going to hurt us, it’s going to hurt South Americans as they opt for economic isolationism. The Saudis are going to put Chavez (and his best buddy, Ahmedenijad) in his place by capping the price of oil at $50-$60.. That’s aimed mainly at Iran\*, but it’ll hit Chavie, too. \*Iran has very high oil extraction costs compared to other M.E. countries, and it will have increasing trouble keeping it’s economy afloat. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297/42 "2007-01-31T22:37:01Z")
Wait a fucking second. Are you honestly trying to argue that people are better off in China than they are in Ireland? That there are as many poor people in Ireland, proportionally, as there are in China? Or that there are fewer poor people in Malaysia than there are in Ireland? Are you fucking stupid? Wait, I mean: Just how fucking stupid are you? And China’s economy only began to improve when the DITCHED socialism, you dolt. You want to compare China today to 1948 China? Why not compare 1948 China to 1969 China? Or compare 1969 China to 2007 China? The glorious socialist revolution doesn’t look so fucking hot now, does it? Socialism turned China from an anarchic feudal basked case to a totalitarian dictatorial basket case. Repudiation of socialism turned China from a totalitarian dictatorial basket case to an authoritarian developing country. Socialism didn’t improve China. Dictatorship didn’t improve China. Socialism may or may not improve Venezuela, whatever, but surely dictatorship isn’t going to. Or are you one of those who supports dictatorship as long as the dictators claim to follow your political philosophy? You up for some dictatorship in Mexico? What other countries would be improved by tossing out democracy and imposing dictatorship? Asshole. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297/43 "2007-01-31T22:39:11Z")
[QUOTE=A Monkey With a Gun] Lord, as soon as soon as I wrote the word “socialism” I knew some idiot was going to bring up China. [/QUOTE] Which was why I didn’t include it in my list. I may be an idiot but I’m not just SOME idiot. What pisses me off about Chavez, though it may ultimately work to his disadvantage, is that Venezuela wasn’t all that bad off before he took power. Had he limited his actions to renegotiating the oil contracts to being more in its favor he would’ve done his country a world of good but it’s like he’s TRYING to make Venezuela a pariah state. Gaddafi shouldn’t be used as a role model! ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297/44 "2007-01-31T22:39:32Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Eh. His anti-Americanism isn’t going to hurt us, it’s going to hurt South Americans as they opt for economic isolationism. The Saudis are going to put Chavez (and his best buddy, Ahmedenijad) in his place by capping the price of oil at $50-$60.. That’s aimed mainly at Iran\*, but it’ll hit Chavie, too. [/QUOTE] Huh. In a thread mentioning Chavez, the Saudi royal family, and Iran, it’s Chavez who comes in for your ire for his anti-democratic ways? I’m not comfortable with what Chavez does, but he’s a helluva lot more democratic than our Saudi allies, and if we’re criticizing folks for anti-democratic practices, he needs to be way down the list. If we’re criticizing folks for their anti-American ways, of course, that’s a different story. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297/45 "2007-01-31T22:43:34Z")
Oddly, a benevolent, or at least not-very-vindictive, dictatorship is what \*\*John \*\* _dreams for_ in Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297/46 "2007-01-31T22:46:42Z")
[QUOTE=Lemur866] Wait a fucking second. Are you honestly trying to argue that people are better off in China than they are in Ireland? That there are as many poor people in Ireland, proportionally, as there are in China? Or that there are fewer poor people in Malaysia than there are in Ireland? Are you fucking stupid? Wait, I mean: Just how fucking stupid are you? And China’s economy only began to improve when the DITCHED socialism, you dolt. You want to compare China today to 1948 China? Why not compare 1948 China to 1969 China? Or compare 1969 China to 2007 China? The glorious socialist revolution doesn’t look so fucking hot now, does it? Socialism turned China from an anarchic feudal basked case to a totalitarian dictatorial basket case. Repudiation of socialism turned China from a totalitarian dictatorial basket case to an authoritarian developing country. Socialism didn’t improve China. Dictatorship didn’t improve China. Socialism may or may not improve Venezuela, whatever, but surely dictatorship isn’t going to. Or are you one of those who supports dictatorship as long as the dictators claim to follow your political philosophy? You up for some dictatorship in Mexico? What other countries would be improved by tossing out democracy and imposing dictatorship? Asshole. [/QUOTE] Hey asshole, I just pointed out something that the CIA published. If you have an argument, take it up with them. Oh yeah, those are the same dumb fucks that claimed Iraq had WMDs. There is no dictatorship in Venezuela. Chavez was elected by 60% of the vote. It’s all of you idiots that are making these wild claims. Views based I’m sure on unbiased US news media reports. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297/47 "2007-01-31T22:49:56Z")
[QUOTE=CBEscapee] Hey asshole, I just pointed out something that the CIA published. If you have an argument, take it up with them. [/QUOTE] How about taking it up with idiots who create or cite obfuscatory sites that collate incomparable data and tabulate it to make some retarded points about the benefits of socialism? At least the CIA made the effort of pointing out that the data isn’t comparable. You, on the other hand, directly claimed that it was, and are strangely reluctant to admit that that’s balls. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297/48 "2007-01-31T22:50:46Z")
[QUOTE=CBEscapee] There is no dictatorship in Venezuela. Chavez was elected by 60% of the vote. _ **Venezuela** _How the Hell is “Rule by Decree” not a dictatorship? ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297/49 "2007-01-31T22:52:18Z")
[QUOTE=CBEscapee] There is no dictatorship in Venezuela. Chavez was elected by 60% of the vote. [/quote] How the Hell is “Rule by Decree” not a dictatorship? Damn, I thought I hit the edit function. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297/50 "2007-01-31T22:53:51Z")
[QUOTE=Dead Badger] How about taking it up with idiots who create or cite obfuscatory sites that collate incomparable data and tabulate it to make some retarded points about the benefits of socialism? At least the CIA made the effort of pointing out that the data isn’t comparable. You, on the other hand, directly claimed that it was, and are strangely reluctant to admit that that’s balls. [/QUOTE] The only claim I made was that the Chinese are better off with a socialist dictatorship. Something that has yet to be unproven. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297/51 "2007-01-31T22:58:16Z")
Thing is, a not-too-awful dictatorship would be a step UP for Iraq, which, if you’ve been following the news, has had some problems lately with the violence and the militias and the beheadings and the suicide bombers and the foreign occupation and the roadside bombs and the kidnappings. Would such a dictatorship be a step up for Venezuela? Is Venezuela experiencing a crisis like Iraq? Venezuela isn’t a basket case, but they just voted to allow the President to rule by decree. Chavez is now dictator of Venezuela, all nice and legal…the people voted to make him dictator! You aren’t against democracy, are you? If you aren’t in favor of dictatorship in Venezuela you must be against democracy! Up is down, black is white, etc, etc. That Saudi Arabia was a dictatorship yesterday, is a dictatorship today, and will be a dictatorship tommorrow is sad, but there isn’t anything we can do about it. But Venezuela was a democracy yesterday but they became a dictatorship today, and they’ll be a dictatorship tomorrow. And that’s more tragic than the news that yesterday’s shithole dictatorship is still a shithole dictatorship today. Pretty simple. Democracy good, tyranny bad. So simple even a socialist should be able to understand. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297/52 "2007-01-31T23:01:37Z")
Just a quick note: I am **not** defending Chavez here; on balance, he looks like a power-hungry prick, Leftist variety (as opposed to power-hungry pricks, Rightist variety, to be pitted as needed elsewhere). But there is a longstanding tradition in South America of someone exercising strong leadership through rule by decree or the equivalent for a limited period, then returning the nation to democratic mode. This commonly happens in nations with a history of governmental instability and failure to address widespread national problems; the Cincinnatus-figure is seen as a deliverer, someone who provides stable government and needed reforms. Granted that all too often, the Cincinnatus finds the taste of power habit-forming, does **not** return the country to democratic forms, and turns from Cincinnatus into Cinna. My point is that I’m highly skeptical of Chavez, but it **is** too soon to tell. If it’s true that he can put almost anything he wants through the legislature, this is a power grab. But let’s see what happens. It’s barely possible he’s doing a Cincinnatus. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297/53 "2007-01-31T23:02:20Z")
[QUOTE=Lemur866] Wait a fucking second. Are you honestly trying to argue that people are better off in China than they are in Ireland? That there are as many poor people in Ireland, proportionally, as there are in China? Or that there are fewer poor people in Malaysia than there are in Ireland? Are you fucking stupid? Wait, I mean: Just how fucking stupid are you? And China’s economy only began to improve when the DITCHED socialism, you dolt. You want to compare China today to 1948 China? Why not compare 1948 China to 1969 China? Or compare 1969 China to 2007 China? The glorious socialist revolution doesn’t look so fucking hot now, does it? Socialism turned China from an anarchic feudal basked case to a totalitarian dictatorial basket case. Repudiation of socialism turned China from a totalitarian dictatorial basket case to an authoritarian developing country. Socialism didn’t improve China. Dictatorship didn’t improve China. Socialism may or may not improve Venezuela, whatever, but surely dictatorship isn’t going to. Or are you one of those who supports dictatorship as long as the dictators claim to follow your political philosophy? You up for some dictatorship in Mexico? What other countries would be improved by tossing out democracy and imposing dictatorship? Asshole. [/QUOTE] Or you could, you know, just point out what Taiwan has done in the same time frame. Pretty much the same starting point for both PRC and ROC, and yet Taiwan is far ahead of PRC at any point in the time line you’d care to pick, by any measure you care to use, quality-of-life-wise. And continues to be today. Which is why CBE continues to ignore it, because it disproves his point. Rather spectacularly. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297/54 "2007-01-31T23:06:42Z")
[QUOTE=CBEscapee] The only claim I made was that the Chinese are better off with a socialist dictatorship. Something that has yet to be unproven. [/QUOTE] Absolute cobblers. Can’t you read your own words? > [@you](#): > > If you want a good eye opener read how China and the US compare when it comes to people living in poverty. Nah, no attempt to compare the USA and China there. Nosirree. Couldn’t find one if I tried. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297/55 "2007-01-31T23:07:40Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] In [I said . . . [/QUOTE] Tsk. I mean, [url=[What would a Socialist (Socialist Party, USA) America be like? - Great Debates - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=403277)]this](]this thread[/url) thread. Wjhere we went 'round and 'round about Chavez (and the Canadian NDP), because the Socialist Party USA itself has done nothing worth discussing for a long, long time . . . ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297/56 "2007-01-31T23:09:01Z")
[QUOTE=CBEscapee] They not only supported it but encouraged it. [/QUOTE] Worse, by their own admission they knew the coup was coming, but “forgot” to tell the elected government. There is a difference on supporting democracy and supporting an individual, I do not see a problem in defending the will of the Venezuelan people and at the same time point to the now abusive move by Chavez. I said before that unfortunately the opposition was already on record of ignoring democracy and use violence to get their way, no way in hell one should support that in place of Chavez. So, this will unfortunately will have to be a waiting game, it is high time that the opposition realize that they will have to offer a better choice than Chavez, running on a platform to get rid of reforms that benefited the poor is madness, running now on getting rid of an abuse of power like the one we see today is the right thing to do, but it has to be in the end the choice of the Venezuelans. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297/57 "2007-01-31T23:10:21Z")
Its not that simple, of course. What the heck is socialism, anyway? Is Sweden socialistic? ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297/58 "2007-01-31T23:14:42Z")
[QUOTE=Weirddave] Or you could, you know, just point out what Taiwan has done in the same time frame. Pretty much the same starting point for both PRC and ROC, and yet Taiwan is far ahead of PRC at any point in the time line you’d care to pick, by any measure you care to use, quality-of-life-wise. And continues to be today. Which is why CBE continues to ignore it, because it disproves his point. Rather spectacularly. [/QUOTE] Are you trying to argue that Taiwan was a democracy from 1949? Guess what, moron? Taiwan was under martial law until 1987 and had it’s first free presidential election in 1996. You want to talk about dictatorships? Start with Chiang Kaishek. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297/59 "2007-01-31T23:15:25Z")
[QUOTE=GIGObuster] I said before that unfortunately the opposition was already on record of ignoring democracy and use violence to get their way, no way in hell one should support that in place of Chavez. [/QUOTE] Well, yeah, but so was Chavez. You remember '92? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297/60 "2007-01-31T23:21:30Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Amazing] Well, yeah, but so was Chavez. You remember '92? [/QUOTE] He paid for that, remember? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297.md?page=4)