# The President can rule by decree. WTF??? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 31, 2007, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297 "2007-01-31T18:38:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2007, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297/121 "2007-02-01T05:01:17Z")
[QUOTE=CBEscapee] Big oil will still get crude … [/QUOTE] A very valid point, even if not quite what you meant! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2007, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297/122 "2007-02-01T05:04:06Z")
It ain’t the time to fight this Frank, but that joke is not funny. Pop culture stink-bombs won’t wash away the fact that Mr Chávez is a puppet of somebody. And by somebody I mean us and by us I mean the US. One day we’ll milk Venezuela like the fattest goat in the yard. If I’m not overreaching, there needs to be a union of American states and an expression of states’ rights. Possibly a constitutional framework. I don’t think a nut like Chávez can tolerate that. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2007, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297/123 "2007-02-01T05:10:36Z")
[QUOTE=El Cid Viscoso] It ain’t the time to fight this Frank, but that joke is not funny. [/QUOTE] I’d love to fight it with you over a beer next time I’m on the western slope. I’ll let you know - probably March or April. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2007, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297/124 "2007-02-01T05:16:13Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] That was my point, I believe. Chevron, or whatever companies are involved there couldn’t care less what Chavez does, as long as the oil flows. Please demonstate any time since the founding of the U.S. when we have shown that we give a shit. Seriously. That sentence was a bit harsh, but (as said) depending on who is running the country, when choosing between alienating Latin America or securing our (possibly synonymous) national or business interests, our attitude has always been: “How many divisions has the Pope?” [/QUOTE] Yeah, if we can’t take your word for it, just ask Hugo 😃 ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2007, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297/125 "2007-02-01T09:23:37Z")
Just to inject a question - is there provision in the Venezuelan constitution for such a rule-by-decree decision, does anybody know? If so, I’d have no problem with it, if not, I’d be a bit worried. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2007, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297/126 "2007-02-01T11:55:36Z")
[QUOTE=MrDibble] Just to inject a question - is there provision in the Venezuelan constitution for such a rule-by-decree decision, does anybody know? If so, I’d have no problem with it, if not, I’d be a bit worried. [/QUOTE] Also note the decision is time limited. 18 months. And with the coup-friendly opposition having boycotted elections they can hardly complain if the democratically elected congress granted him these powers. It’s a shame there isn’t another choice between Chavez and a bunch of self-serving traitors who don’t give a shit for the poverty of the people who voted Chavez in. Violence and dictatorship needed [say the opposition](http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1320) > [@](#): > > Venezuelan opposition leader, and two time president Carlos Andres Perez (CAP), made a series of statements calling for violence and hinting at an eventual dictatorial period that the Venezuelan opposition must implement if current President Hugo Chavez is to be removed from office. > > “I am working to remove Chavez [from power]. Violence will allow us to remove him. That’s the only way we have,” said CAP in an interview published Sunday in El Nacional, one of Venezuela’s main daily newspapers. > > CAP, who was speaking from Miami, denied being involved in a plot to assassinate Chávez, but said Chavez “must die like a dog, because he deserves it.” > > \ > > During the interview, CAP hinted at a possible dictatorial period to be implemented in case Chavez is removed from office. "We can’t just get rid of Chavez and immediately have a democracy… we will need a transition period of two or three years to lay the foundations for a state where the rule of law prevails… a collegiate body (junta) must govern during that transition and lay the democratic foundations for the future,” CAP said. > > “When Chavez falls, we must shut down the National Assembly (Congress) and also the Supreme Court. All the Chavista institutions must disappear,” the opposition leader added. Damn that beastly Chavez. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2007, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297/127 "2007-02-01T13:25:01Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] Also note the decision is time limited. 18 months. [/QUOTE] And Saddam has WMD! Lots of them; I know because they said so! > [@](#): > > Damn that beastly Chavez. You know, just because some of the opposition are shits doesn’t make Chavez any better. I realise you’re probably creaming yourself over the emergence of a socialist “revolution”, but would it be too much trouble to step back and actually notice that democracy is being erased in an entire country? Do you have that much perspective? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2007, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297/128 "2007-02-01T13:37:48Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] No. You must have missed this standard joke: [zillions of Indians surround the Lone Ranger and Tonto] Lone Ranger: We’re in trouble now, Tonto! Tonto: What do you mean we, white man? [/QUOTE] It is a funny joke, as all jokes with surprising punch lines are funny. But it does paint the Indian as a savage who cannot comprehend Western values like loyalty. Funny, yes. Insulting, condescending, and racist — also yes. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2007, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297/129 "2007-02-01T13:58:56Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] It is a funny joke, as all jokes with surprising punch lines are funny. But it does paint the Indian as a savage who cannot comprehend Western values like loyalty. Funny, yes. Insulting, condescending, and racist — also yes. [/QUOTE] That, or he’s a intelligent pragmatist rather than an ignorant honor-obsessed savage. Interesting that you consider loyalty a “Western value”. What’s that say about you? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2007, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297/130 "2007-02-01T14:10:04Z")
[QUOTE=Merijeek] That, or he’s a intelligent pragmatist rather than an ignorant honor-obsessed savage. Interesting that you consider loyalty a “Western value”. What’s that say about you? -Joe [/QUOTE] It was meant sarcastically. Western thought has always been Westcentric — thinking like the Soviet Union, that it invented everything and that everything significant eminated from it. That’s why there wasn’t even a “discovery” of this whole side of the world until the Europeans got here. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2007, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297/131 "2007-02-01T14:23:26Z")
[QUOTE=Dead Badger] You know, just because some of the opposition are shits doesn’t make Chavez any better. I realise you’re probably creaming yourself over the emergence of a socialist “revolution”, but would it be too much trouble to step back and actually notice that democracy is being erased in an entire country? Do you have that much perspective? [/QUOTE] Curiously (or not) the _Ley Habilitante_ or Enabling Act is part of the legal political process of Venezuela and has been used in the past by Chávez and other Venezuelan presidents. Curiously enough (not) I can’t recall any outrage by the world’s keeper of democracy (by decree) when past Venezuelan presidents utilized this legislative tool. Wikipedia: > [@](#): > > In Venezuela, enabling laws allowing the President to rule by decree in selected matters have been granted to Carlos Andrés Pérez (1974),[1] Jaime Lusinchi (1984)[2] and Ramón José Velásquez (1993)[3]. In mid 2000 a similar law enabled Hugo Chávez to legislate on issues related to the economy, reorganization of government ministries, and crime for one year. > > Chávez did not take advantage of this act until shortly before its expiration, when he passed 49 [http://www.escambray.cu/Eng/news/Wvenez070123848.htmdecrees](http://www.escambray.cu/Eng/news/Wvenez070123848.htmdecrees) in rapid succession, many of them highly controversial.[1][2][3] A new enabling act was requested by President Chávez which, if granted, would give the president the ability to rule by decree over certain economic, social, territorial, defense, and scientific matters as well as control over transportation, regulations for popular participation, and rules for governing state institutions. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2007, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297/132 "2007-02-01T14:28:11Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I can only hope Chavez won’t abuse the power too badly and that there will still be a democratic process in place when he finally dies or lays it down. There is a saying in German - “the soup is never served as hot as when it is made”. Peole used it a lot early in the 1930’s. Less and less as time went on. Let’s see what happens when the oil revenue starts to drop, and Chavez needs a scapegoat to distract the people. So far, we have the _Fuhrerprinzip_. Can the _Dolchstosstheorie_ be far behind? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2007, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297/133 "2007-02-01T14:41:31Z")
[QUOTE=Dead Badger] And Saddam has WMD! Lots of them; I know because they said so! You know, just because some of the opposition are shits doesn’t make Chavez any better. I realise you’re probably creaming yourself over the emergence of a socialist “revolution”, but would it be too much trouble to step back and actually notice that democracy is being erased in an entire country? Do you have that much perspective? [/QUOTE] The opposition led a friggin’ coup with Chilian junta style erasure of democracy on their mind. I know full well who I see as the bigger threat to democracy here. On the one hand - your hysterical and paranoid blatherings and on the other a failed coup attempt. Unsupported fantasy vs historical fact. Here we have no evidence whatsoever of democracy being erased - just a democratically elected leader being constitutionally given temporary powers to carry out a program he was elected to carry out. And in due course he and his party will face the electorate. If you have proof that the elections won’t be held please share it with us. ‘Proof’ does not equal ‘the voices in my head’. Maybe he’s everything his enemies say - but like with Castro - the alternatives are just as corrupt, brutal and evil and the way to ensure the people of Venezuela have only a Devil-Deep Blue Sea choice is for America to continue its traditional latin american policy of arming brutal dictators and setting them on their hapless populations the instant they try and shake off their poverty and threaten American/corporate interests. Venezuelan politics are their business. The people re-elected Chavez with a mandate that would stain the trousers of any other politician. The USA and the hysterical right-wing blogosphere should just learn to live with it. This is a country where in 2001 the poorest 30% share 3.6% of the income/consumption according to [The Human Development Index](http://hdr.undp.org/reports/global/2003/indicator/cty_f_VEN.html) while the top 30% get the 90% lion’s share. Where 47% live on $3 a day or less. Of course the ‘haves’ hate Chavez. He wants to do something about it. The Opposition clearly don’t, or couldn’t be bothered. So yes - if Chavez can make a difference with a few decrees then good bloody luck to him. Someone needs to do something and I know full well it won’t be the would-be Pinochet’s of the anti-democratic and murderous Opposition. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2007, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297/134 "2007-02-01T15:00:37Z")
[QUOTE=CBEscapee] Curiously (or not) the _Ley Habilitante_ or Enabling Act is part of the legal political process of Venezuela and has been used in the past by Chávez and other Venezuelan presidents. Curiously enough (not) I can’t recall any outrage by the world’s keeper of democracy (by decree) when past Venezuelan presidents utilized this legislative tool. [/QUOTE] Well, I do apologise for failing to express my outrage over those previous incidents; at those times I was engaged in (chronologically) practical nihilism, kindergarten and puberty. I confess I’m at a loss, however, as to how a tradition of usurption of power in a nominal democracy makes it any more palatable. I believe Venezuela has undergone numerous coups in its history; are these, too, part of a healthy executive and legislative tradition? Congratulations, however, on finding an actually moderately relevant cite. I should just point out one little sentence from it: > [@Wikipedia](#): > > It is important not to confuse enabling acts from different times & places, since their effect varies widely. It’s a bit like the poverty line again, isn’t it? Now, I went looking for specifically what powers were granted to Chavez’s predecessors, and haven’t had much luck; the best I can find is [this pro-Chavez news item](http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1946), which would seem to indicate that the powers granted in earlier years were rather less sweeping. Not that this makes it any better, of course; I find any wholesale transfer of legislative power to the executive branch to be a worrying thing, particularly when enacted by an unrepresentative legislature. “Because we can” is never the most appealing of justifications. > [@tagos](#): > > The opposition led a friggin’ coup with Chilian junta style erasure of democracy on their mind. I know full well who I see as the bigger threat to democracy here. On the one hand - your hysterical and paranoid blatherings and on the other a failed coup attempt. Unsupported fantasy vs historical fact. Oops. There you go with your binary politics again. Why do I need to excuse the failings and crimes of the opposition in order to point out anti-democratic action by the incumbent? And what’s this? Did _Chavez_ lead a failed coup, too? [Say it ain’t so!](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuelan_coup_attempts_of_1992) But that’s probably just my paranoid ranting, right? As you say: good bloody luck to him! Just the sort of guy that deserves power of decree. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2007, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297/135 "2007-02-01T15:25:53Z")
I would assume that to someone who feels knowledgeable enough to rant and froth about Venezuelan politics Chavez political history would not be news. Politics isn’t about saints and sinners it’s about the lesser of multiple evils and at the moment Chavez is the lesser evil by a country mile. And you seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that temporarily delegating authority to the executive is undemocratic. No doubt therefore, you are chewing the carpet in outrage at the US Constitution in general, what with all those powers the President has. Not to mention Executive Orders - which have the binding force of law upon federal agencies but do not require congressional approval. And further not to mention President Gump’s own unique intepretation of executive authority and his ability to ignore any law he chooses. Yet laudibly you still find time to get excised about some pissant little Latin American country. Perhaps later I’ll google all your outraged posts concerning the anti-democratic nature of the USA and the evil despotism of Gump. I mean, there’s bound to be scads of them right? And plenty more on Crown Prerogative in the UK Parliamentary system I’m sure. The latter meaning the PM can go to war without legislative approval. And the decree powers of the Presidents of Mexico and France? And Indonesia I mean - you are in need of oxygen to counter-act the effects of apoplexy over those? Can there be any carpet left to chew in the Badger household?. Or could this just be another example of the selective outrage that so afflicts a part of the political spectrum? ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2007, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297/136 "2007-02-01T15:46:25Z")
You do realise, do you not, that this “well why haven’t you complained about THIS” attempt at a gotcha is possibly the lamest debate tactic found outside the playground, right? I mean, I realise you want to avoid answering any actual points addressed to you (that coup cockup of yours must really have hurt; gave me a laugh, though), but this is just truly tragic. Meanwhile, why don’t you give me another giggle and tell me which part of the political spectrum you think I’m from? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2007, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297/137 "2007-02-01T15:54:37Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] Or could this just be another example of the selective outrage that so afflicts a part of the political spectrum? [/QUOTE] More likely it is a selective apologia that afflicts another part of it. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2007, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297/138 "2007-02-01T16:11:35Z")
[QUOTE=Dead Badger] You do realise, do you not, that this “well why haven’t you complained about THIS” attempt at a gotcha is possibly the lamest debate tactic found outside the playground, right? I mean, I realise you want to avoid answering any actual points addressed to you (that coup cockup of yours must really have hurt; gave me a laugh, though), but this is just truly tragic. Meanwhile, why don’t you give me another giggle and tell me which part of the political spectrum you think I’m from? [/QUOTE] As you have confected outrage at this subject I do expect you to have similar outrage. Unless of course you were blithely unaware that preesidential executive powers are as common as flies on shit of course. Which is the rub I expect. ‘A President I don’t like has decree powers! Oh noes!’ So you tell me - why is it so evuul for Chavez to have them when they are a common feature of current and damn sight more important democracies? Why has Chavez got your knickers twisted up your crack? Tell me - what unique threat is he, as opposed to - to pluck a dangerous democratically elected madman or three off the top of my head - say - oh Bush, Blair and Putin - to the world? You have of course read the [The Venezuelan Constitution?](http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Venezuela) > [@](#): > > Article 236: The following are attributions and duties of the President of the Republic: > > \ > > (8) To issue executive orders having the force of law, subject to authorization in advance by an enabling act. You do a very good impression of being just another can’t think for themselves right-winger, or if not you are a fellow traveller, conscious or not as you buy into their propaganda. Either that or you are too ignorant of politics and democratic theory and practice to have an opinion on the matter unless you can come up with some rational reason why Chavez as opposed to all the other executive-powered Presidents upsets you so much. Is it you don’t like what he does with his constitutional powers? All that unrelenting alleviating of the poverty of his electorate? An allergy to cut price fuel for the poor? His attempts to discharge the social guarantees for health, employement etc embodied in the constitution? What is it? What ‘liberty’ has he deprived anyone of? The freedom to be destitute? The freedom of a few to be obscenely wealthy and screw everyone else? The freedom for foreign corporations to screw everyone? The freedom of newspapers to partake in coups? The Constitution of his country guarantees people all sorts of social and economic rights and it is his duty to uphold that constitution. What is it that is so much more important than what Blair and Bush have done with their constitutional executive powers that leads you and your fellow travellers to parrot the wild and unsubstantiated rantings of the right blogosphere when the world is full of demonstrably evil leaders (mostly allied to the West)? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2007, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297/139 "2007-02-01T16:13:55Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] More likely it is a selective apologia that afflicts another part of it. [/QUOTE] Until someone demonstrates Chavez has done anything wrong nothing I say is ‘apologising’ - it is fighting hysterical ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2007, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297/140 "2007-02-01T16:40:00Z")
[QUOTE=El Cid Viscoso] Pop culture stink-bombs won’t wash away the fact that Mr Chávez is a puppet of somebody. And by somebody I mean us and by us I mean the US. One day we’ll milk Venezuela like the fattest goat in the yard. [/quote] I see. So he acts like America’s worst enemy, makes alliances with our other enemies, and calls W (with some justice) “the Devil” because those are his orders from Washington; and those are his orders because . . . because the Bohemian Grove/Skull & Bones string-pullers want to keep us confused. We’re getting into [_Illuminatus!_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Illuminatus%21_Trilogy) territory here . . . [QUOTE=El Cid Viscoso] If I’m not overreaching, there needs to be a union of American states and an expression of states’ rights. Possibly a constitutional framework. I don’t think a nut like Chávez can tolerate that. [/QUOTE] **Tolerate** it?! Haven’t you been following the news?! The South American countries have been working for a few years now to put together an economic union modeled on the European Union. Chavez has been **actively engaged** in that process. OTOH, he has also been something of a stumbling block to it because he is very determined such a union should **exclude the U.S.** – which makes eminently good sense from a Latin American POV, and Chavez is not the only SA leader who thinks that way. I expect they’ll get all these differences ironed out eventually. See [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=405123) thread. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297.md?page=8)