# The President can rule by decree. WTF??? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 31, 2007, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297 "2007-01-31T18:38:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2007, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297/161 "2007-02-01T23:57:16Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] A modus ponens is similar to a confirmation of the antecedant fallacy. So what? Even a nuanced position has some underlying premise(s). Is there nothing to be learned from the many times throughout history that the assent of the congress of the ruling party has been paraded as confirmation of democracy? I would at least expect liberals, of all people, to be at the very least suspicious. Civil liberties and all that. [/QUOTE] And I’m suspicions, so what is your point in exaggerating or ignoring the positions of many on the left then? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2007, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297/162 "2007-02-02T00:04:01Z")
[QUOTE=GIGObuster] And I’m suspicions, so what is your point in exaggerating or ignoring the positions of many on the left then? [/QUOTE] All I did was ask the question. If you’re at least suspicious, then I’m greatly relieved. But for me, the same premise that raises my suspicion raises a categorical opposition by direct implication. The assent of his congress notwithstanding, his people did not elect a dictator. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2007, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297/163 "2007-02-02T00:18:59Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] But why don’t the board’s leftists just go ahead and condemn it categorically? Why all the coy smartassedness from them? [/QUOTE] Could it just possibly be that the disconnect between whatever you think whoever you’re referring to you thinks, and what they actually think, isn’t \*their \* fault? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2007, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297/164 "2007-02-02T00:25:24Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] Do you not believe that allowing Chavez these powers is a step _away_ from democracy? [/quote] It could be. Or perhaps he means what he says about redistributing the wealth, and needs extra powers to fight the entrenched interests, etc. Most likely yes, power is going to his head, in the traditional manner. But what interests me most is the selective nature of the outrage. Would it exist (or, for that matter, would there \*be \* much wealth in Venezuela to redistribute) without the, erm, critical natural resource they have in abundance? There are much worse humanitarian and democratic problems in many other places that get the ol’ shrug of the shoulders instead. > [@](#): > > Do you see any comparison between this and the voting to Hitler of such power by a democratically elected Reichstag? Please. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > Shit, I’m a leftist, and in some ways a socialist, but I’m also, and even more so, a believer in democratic and/or republican government. The actions of the Venezuelan government should be appalling to those who prize the latter. I’d say “worrying”, for now. But I’m worried even more about Bush taking the actions he’s threatened, implicitly, before, to protect “our” oil. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2007, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297/165 "2007-02-02T04:20:03Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] My guess is the reason he generates outrage isn’t his acts as a president so much as his inflammatory rhetoric against the US in general and Bush in particular. [/QUOTE] Why should **that** generate outrage, even in the U.S.? ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2007, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297/166 "2007-02-02T04:37:50Z")
Right-wing rage against Chavez predated his recent baiting of the US. Now don’t you think that [big oil](http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/09/24/MNGNSLBRUG1.DTL) might have just a teeny tiny bit to do with generating some of that rage? And I’ll bet if “Myanmar” tried to nationalize its oil fields, the right would suddenly discover the democratic movement in that country. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2007, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297/167 "2007-02-02T04:42:21Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] Please. :rolleyes: [/QUOTE] Yeah, the Germans thought that too. Not that the analogy will hold forever, but just keep it in the back of your mind just in case. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2007, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297/168 "2007-02-02T04:49:49Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] But what interests me most is the selective nature of the outrage. Would it exist (or, for that matter, would there \*be \* much wealth in Venezuela to redistribute) without the, erm, critical natural resource they have in abundance? There are much worse humanitarian and democratic problems in many other places that get the ol’ shrug of the shoulders instead. [/quote] A good point. Certainly the right, if they wished to show some consistency, should display just as much interest in the dictatorships of Burma, Zimbabwe, et.al., as they do with the potential dictatorship in Venezuela. > [@](#): > > Please. :rolleyes: Oh, please, :rolleyes: , yourself. Can you actually demonstrate the difference between the two enabling acts? > [@](#): > > I’d say “worrying”, for now. But I’m worried even more about Bush taking the actions he’s threatened, implicitly, before, to protect “our” oil. Can’t I be appalled, or perhaps worried, by both? ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2007, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297/169 "2007-02-02T05:10:51Z")
Interesting thread. First of all, what **Frank** just said. Secondly, Venezuela, prior to being enslaved by its oil, was a pretty decent place. Now, it’s falling into the classic “resource curse” trap. What it needs is a true progressive, who deals with the poor as autonomous people capable of improving their own lives on their own. India’s government, which deals with a population far poorer than Venezuela’s, is a prime example, and has been since about the same time Mao began mass murdering the Chinese, in the name of the same people he was killing, of course. Indira tried, in India, what Chavez is trying in Venezuela, and was kicked out. One hopes Chavez will suffer the same fate, but I’m pretty sure this is a forlorn hope. And to repeat what I said in the very beginning, a few years ago when Chavez and Lula both came up at the same time: the diff between them is that Lula was a union leader, and therefore familiar with negotiation, compromise, and democracy. Chavez was a general, and therefore only familiar with ordering people around, like any militarist. I am not surprised, at all, by the fact that he now wants to rule by decree. Anyone who thinks this is temporary is either naive or smoking something powerful enough that I want some. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2007, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297/170 "2007-02-02T05:28:11Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] Can you actually demonstrate the difference between the two enabling acts? [/quote] Can you find some other analog than Godwin’s? If Chavez’ actions are as predictable from precedent in human nature as you say, there should be many others to pick from to draw your comparison. Not every dictator is fucking Hitler, and not every demagogue is a fucking dictator anyway. But, taking you on your gratuitously-emotion-laden premise anyway, we won’t know for 18 months, will we? Your Hitler comparison has the benefit of hindsight, which wasn’t available at the time of his election and isn’t available to us for Chavez now. It’s utterly fallacious to use that to say that what did happen is what must have happened, and even more fallacious to say that if somebody else does something superficially analogizable that it must happen again. > [@](#): > > Can’t I be appalled, or perhaps worried, by both? Sure. But you do have to prioritize what you’re appalled/worried about, if you don’t want to spend your waking hours curled in a fetal position and quietly whimpering, that is. ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2007, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297/171 "2007-02-02T05:31:32Z")
Oh good lord. We’re talking about a former general in charge of a nation with a supply-region economy, that is, an economy dependent upon a single export for its livelihood. Such places are classically prone to dictatorship: see Saudi Arabia. Generals are classically prone to dictatorship, of course: see Latin American history, the entire thing. So, what are you smoking? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2007, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297/172 "2007-02-02T05:36:03Z")
SA is a hereditary monarchy. Latin American military dictatorships (and not just those) have been “classically prone” to \*restore \* democracy after “stabilizing” their countries. Want a toke? ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2007, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297/173 "2007-02-02T05:37:46Z")
Like Pinochet? I mean, are you really serious? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2007, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297/174 "2007-02-02T05:42:06Z")
There certainly are exceptions to any blanket generalizations, such as the one you made just above. :rolleyes: Now, are YOU serious about wanting to discuss this ? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2007, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297/175 "2007-02-02T05:47:20Z")
Absolutely. Would you like to see your livelihood destroyed, or your family murdered, for the sake of stabilizing whatever country you had the misfortune of being born in? I’ve got news for you: those Latin Americans are real people, with real lives. They no more deserve to live under a general than you do. Stating that it’s fine for them is simple racism. I’ve already cited India, where people far poorer than Venezuelans live under a democracy that is by now sixty years old. One attempt like Chavez’s was made to introduce dictatorial rule, and it was brought down. Republican rule isn’t a luxury; it’s a necessity if you want to lead a decent life. Everyone deserves it. No one needs a condescending middle-class North American telling them, while patting them gently on the head, that it’ll turn out just fine; this is all temporary, after all. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2007, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297/176 "2007-02-02T05:49:09Z")
[QUOTE=pantom] Like Pinochet? I mean, are you really serious? [/QUOTE] Well, the damned slimy sumbitch **did,** under enormous pressure, restore democracy **eventually.** I have little hope King Abdullah ever will. (Not that there’s anything to **restore,** in Saudi Arabia’s case.) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2007, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297/177 "2007-02-02T05:51:02Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] There certainly are exceptions to any blanket generalizations . . . [/QUOTE] No, there aren’t. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Homo\_Ergaster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e47c2d/32.png) [@Homo\_Ergaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homo_Ergaster)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2007, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297/178 "2007-02-02T06:01:41Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] SA is a hereditary monarchy. Latin American military dictatorships (and not just those) have been “classically prone” to \*restore \* democracy after “stabilizing” their countries. Want a toke? [/QUOTE] Since, apparently i’m the only guy actually living in South america, lemme elighten you. 1. Democracies are only “restored” n So. Am. when the generals have either stolen everything or fucked up so badly that they quit. Pinochet’s referendum in the anomaly. 2. In Peru, Fujimori took control of the country, cleaned it up, but as years went by he just couldn’t step down forcing a nd re-election and videos of his right-hand guy giving million of dollars in cash to politicians and media owners forced him to escape. 3. In Argentina it took a bothced war against UK to kick the generals out. so on. The whole problem is that, in a country like mine with a gdp growing for 5 years straight, the people in what’s called “extreme povery” has only gone down 5%. Extreme poverty means no water, sewers, electricity, phone, doctors, police, nothing. what do they care about long term? It is understandable they want a fix yesterday. But what Chávez will NOT do is step down on his own, he’s got the clear (and self-proclaimed) maing of Castro, but with oil instead of cigars.Taking advantage of poor people’s desperation in not democracy. Venezula’s poverty increased as oil prives went up. He’s trying to get other countries (mainly Ecuador and bolivia) to be his fart-smellers, giving the “crumbs” of oil (well, it worked with Mass., didn’t it?) And he’s going to make the region “less safe” for investment and my country can get hit but low investment. The whole Burma, Zimbabwe thing. Simple, you can only get into so many (right or wrong) fights. Kyoto was rejected by the US Senate 95-0, that’s democracy, aint it? So, stop complaining. When chavez fails and makes everyone in venezuela even poorer, he’ll say “it was the yankees”. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2007, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297/179 "2007-02-02T06:01:51Z")
[QUOTE=pantom] Absolutely. Would you like to see your livelihood destroyed, or your family murdered, for the sake of stabilizing whatever country you had the misfortune of being born in? I’ve got news for you: those Latin Americans are real people, with real lives. They no more deserve to live under a general than you do. Stating that it’s fine for them is simple racism. I’ve already cited India, where people far poorer than Venezuelans live under a democracy that is by now sixty years old. One attempt like Chavez’s was made to introduce dictatorial rule, and it was brought down. Republican rule isn’t a luxury; it’s a necessity if you want to lead a decent life. Everyone deserves it. No one needs a condescending middle-class North American telling them, while patting them gently on the head, that it’ll turn out just fine; this is all temporary, after all. [/QUOTE] I’m afraid the condescension is not coming from **Elvis**. BTW I don’t know if \*\*Elvis1ives \*\* is what you say he is, but I came from El Salvador and I do know already how to spot a military dictator, Chavez is not there yet. I worry for this move, but ignoring the context that the opposition coup was brought down in great part by the people in Venezuela makes no sense. ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2007, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297/180 "2007-02-02T06:09:13Z")
Has no relevance. You’re trusting a general. Worse than that, you’re trusting a person, rather than a system of checks and balances that will keep that person’s worst instincts in check. Read **Home Ergaster** , who makes the point quite well. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-president-can-rule-by-decree-wtf/390297.md?page=10)