The President can rule by decree. WTF???

[pantom]

Please specify the strawmen. You’re the one apologizing for a general ruling by decree, who has a history of previously attempting to take over the country by military coup. That’s not a strawman; that’s a fact.
Latin American history, including that of Chile, which you seem to want to wave away, is strewn with examples of precisely this kind of thing. You have now decided that you are going to defend this path to development; so, defend away. I await your response.

[Mapache]

Why does everyone keep calling Chavez a general? The highest military rank he held was Lt. Colonel. Hugo Chávez - Wikipedia

[Frank]

@Mapache

Why does everyone keep calling Chavez a general? The highest military rank he held was Lt. Colonel. Hugo Chávez - Wikipedia

He’s a Kentucky General?

[Frank]

@Frank

He’s a Kentucky General?

And, being dumb sometimes, I’ve just realized that people not from the U.S. probably won’t get the reference.

Kentucky Colonel

[El_Cid_Viscoso]

I believe the Hitler analogy is an extremely important one. Because of the Robinson missions Chávez holds a long roster of ethnic groups. It is likely that once his programs are fleeced and start to fail, his first action will be to excise a drain on the economy, specifically among the 800,000 indigenous people in Venezuela. Do we wait for that, or do we burn him with a magnifying glass?

[GIGObuster]

@El Cid Viscoso

We see enough vote manipulation in other third world countries to know it would be easy to quash legitimate dissent. Don’t give me this cock and bull.

Your bull:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=271580&highlight=independent

Carter and the OEA certified the last referendum against Chavez as valid, the opposition lost, the opposition (in yet another bit of why I find them reprehensible) attempted to pass false exit polling results to plant the seeds of unrest, they failed.

As a side note, upon reading this quote I immediately went to the toilet and took a giant, stinky Chávez.

Could not hold the bull I see.

[GIGObuster]

@El Cid Viscoso

I believe the Hitler analogy is an extremely important one. Because of the Robinson missions Chávez holds a long roster of ethnic groups. It is likely that once his programs are fleeced and start to fail, his first action will be to excise a drain on the economy, specifically among the 800,000 indigenous people in Venezuela. Do we wait for that, or do we burn him with a magnifying glass?

Are you Pat Robertson?

[Spoke]

I’m still boggled that we have all this alarmist speculation among those on the right about what Chávez might do at some point in the future and yet we have utter silence on the right about what the junta in Burma/Myanmar has already done and is still doing.

Still wondering why the right’s concern for democracy only seems to extend to those countries where our access to oil might be in jeopardy.

[El_Cid_Viscoso]

@GIGObuster

Your bull:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=271580&highlight=independent

Your point is that because the British newsrag “The Independent” got it wrong in 2004, I have nothing to fear about a tin-pot autocrat manipulating the data in the future. Got it.

[GIGObuster]

@El Cid Viscoso

Your point is that because the British newsrag “The Independent” got it wrong in 2004, I have nothing to fear about a tin-pot autocrat manipulating the data in the future. Got it.

:rolleyes:

Idiot, since you did not notice, I said that the opposition failed. Convincing only a reporter of the independent was not important to you, but the problem then was this: the opposition reported in their blogs that fraud had occurred by citing the Independent, and other right wing newspapers in Latin America that used the fake polling from the opposition, in the Internet in Venezuela and Latin America there was a movement to convince others in the ground that Chavez had committed fraud, not a small thing when you consider that armed conflict was the intention.

[El_Cid_Viscoso]

… not a small thing when you consider that armed conflict was the intention.

Bullshit. Prove it. Three independent sources, and not the “Independent” kind.

Switching gears for a minute, just out of curiosity where do you stand on the whole Lopez-Obrador affair? Are his supporters looking for armed conflict? (Don’t worry too much about it, though. Operation Tortilla Blindfold is wiping him out of our lives, day by day.)

[GIGObuster]

@El Cid Viscoso

Bullshit. Prove it. Three independent sources, and not the “Independent” kind.

On the coup, the opposition organized a protest to head to the national palace with the intention to cause violence. Never mind that there were thousands of Chavez supporters around the presidential palace. Snipers shot first from rooftops to the Chavez supporters and then the right wing TV showed edited footage of only Chavez men returning fire and telling their viewers that Chavez ordered his men to shoot at the protesters. The Bush administration also reported that false information in the white house. Forward to the referendum:

The forums I checked then were from Venezuela in Spanish (and I was checking the Venezuelan press too then) there I found that the right wing was making noise that armed action would be needed if Chavez stole the election (really, if good evidence had been found can one say that was not justifiable?), because they could not convince more foreign press to go along with their polling the attempt fizzled.

That does not mean that they would give up:

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=11471

The second step has been to use the mass media to create the perception that the elections are fraudulent. They have done this in a variety of ways. The NED has funded an organization, Sumate (one-word slogan that means “join up”), with the expressed goal of "achieving a high level of citizen participation in Venezuelan elections. "(7) Founded in 2002, Sumate organized the campaign for the recall referendum to revoke Chavez’s presidential term. They lost the recall vote in August 2004 by a large margin, but went on to claim, with the help of Penn, Schoen, and Berland’s “exit polls,” that the election was fraudulent. Five other polls showed exactly the opposite and concurred with the official voting results in which Chavez won by a wide margin. PSB and Sumate, however, maintained that the opposition had won and that Chavez had committed “massive fraud” in spite of the fact that 5 of the 6 polls concurred with the official results, and that the voting process was certified by both the Carter Center and the Organization of American States.(8) Consequently, Chavez’s image as a democratically elected leader was damaged both nationally and internationally. The fraud claim resonated through the major media, and planted doubts about Chavez’s legitimacy.

Since the recall referendum, the campaign has been non-stop. Sumate and other opposition groups continue to attack the electoral process in Venezuela, claiming it is not transparent and unfairly controlled by the Chavez government. The major media in Venezuela have wholeheartedly supported this campaign giving coverage to Sumate, and their constant press releases denouncing problems with the electoral process. The idea is to decieve enough people into believing that the Chavez regime is not popularly supported, but is holding on to power through fraudulent elections. They have already been fairly successful in convincing a percentage of the population.

Finally, they must get enough people out into the streets in order to create a situation in which a transition of power could take place. Here is where Penn, Schoen & Berland comes in. In the recent months in the lead up to the December 2006 elections, Penn, Schoen & Berland has been instrumental in shaping public perception. In a series of election polls widely covered in the private media, the polling firm has consistently shown that Chavez’s lead is shrinking, and the opposition is gaining momentum, while all of the other surveys done over the last few months show that Chavez maintains a wide lead of between 20 and 30 percent.(9)

Last week, Mr. Schoen, of Penn, Schoen & Berland, released the findings of his latest survey on the Venezuelan evening news. As expected, Penn’s survey showed that Chavez’s opposition, Manuel Rosales, was nearly tied in the polls with Chavez. Chavez, it showed, had only 48% support, and his opponent Manuel Rosales had gained significantly up to 42%. This poll is now being reported across all the major Venezuelan media, to a huge audience, showing that Rosales was gaining more and more everyday, and could possibly win. Mr. Schoen added his personal opinion, “The momentum is clearly with Rosales.”(10)

With the help of the mainstream media, almost all of which is vehemently opposed to the popular president, these fake polls have reached a wide audience. All the newspapers, the major television channels, and internet news sites report the poll results as if they were true, valid, findings. They don’t mention the fact that these findings are not supported by any other polling agency. Again, although the reality is that Rosales has almost no chance of winning in the December elections, much of the population now believes he will. The reality doesn’t seem to matter, all that really matters is what the population believes. When their candidate loses by a large margin, it will be a difficult reality to deal with. If the opposition strategy works, it might be possible to produce large protests and even riots.

Well, it turned out that Chavez won 61% of the vote, to 38% for Rosales. How can one support the current leadership in the opposition is beyond me.

@El Cid Viscoso

Switching gears for a minute, just out of curiosity where do you stand on the whole Lopez-Obrador affair? Are his supporters looking for armed conflict? (Don’t worry too much about it, though. Operation Tortilla Blindfold is wiping him out of our lives, day by day.)

Don’t mind him too much, while there were doubts on the election, Lopez Obrador in the end only could count with a third of the population for support (there were 3 main candidates) The declared winner, Felipe Calderón (who is the NAFTA supporter) is the one getting burned by the tortilla affair:

A Culinary and Cultural Staple in Crisis

Mexico is in the grip of the worst tortilla crisis in its modern history. Dramatically rising international corn prices, spurred by demand for the grain-based fuel ethanol, have led to expensive tortillas. That, in turn, has led to lower sales for vendors such as Rosales and angry protests by consumers.

The uproar is exposing this country’s outsize dependence on tortillas in its diet – especially among the poor – and testing the acumen of the new president, Felipe Calderón. It is also raising questions about the powerful businesses that dominate the Mexican corn market and are suspected by some lawmakers and regulators of unfair speculation and monopoly practices.

Tortilla prices have tripled or quadrupled in some parts of Mexico since last summer. On Jan. 18, Calderón announced an agreement with business leaders capping tortilla prices at 78 cents per kilogram, or 2.2 pounds, less than half the highest reported prices. The president’s move was a throwback to a previous era when Mexico controlled prices – the government subsidized tortillas until 1999, at which point cheap corn imports were rising under the NAFTA trade agreement. It was also a surprise given his carefully crafted image as an avowed supporter of free trade.

[CBEscapee]

@El Cid Viscoso

Bullshit. Prove it. Three independent sources, and not the “Independent” kind.

Switching gears for a minute, just out of curiosity where do you stand on the whole Lopez-Obrador affair? Are his supporters looking for armed conflict? (Don’t worry too much about it, though. Operation Tortilla Blindfold is wiping him out of our lives, day by day.)

Wiping him out of our lives? What do you mean by our lives, gringo? He got fucked out of the presidency in July. I suppose you know everything about it, you know, through the unbiased American media?

[pantom]

My brother-in-law lives there, a few hours away from Mexico City. He’s serenely unaffected by Lopez-Obrador, somehow.
So it seems he was wiped out of at least some people’s lives, anyway.
BTW, it doesn’t do much for your cause to continue to cause trouble right into the new guy’s new term. Just for future reference…

[CBEscapee]

@pantom

My brother-in-law lives there, a few hours away from Mexico City. He’s serenely unaffected by Lopez-Obrador, somehow.
So it seems he was wiped out of at least some people’s lives, anyway.
BTW, it doesn’t do much for your cause to continue to cause trouble right into the new guy’s new term. Just for future reference…

BTW who the fucked asked you?

[pantom]

What? This is a thread, I’m a member, and I’m commenting. Asshole.

[El_Cid_Viscoso]

@CBEscapee

Wiping him out of our lives? What do you mean by our lives, gringo? He got fucked out of the presidency in July. I suppose you know everything about it, you know, through the unbiased American media?

That’s what I admire most about you, your capacity for blinding anger.

It matters to me. I support fair elections and that, my friend, was not a fair election. The only problem is the Tortilla War is taking the heat out of Lopez-Obrador’s movement, and that’s bumping him to the back page of the “World” section of any daily newspaper in the US.

The devil of it (and it’s probably what pisses you off the most) is that without the pressure of Americans like me, Lopez-Obrador would be a puppy piñata. Once our eyes are off him, he’ll go down faster than Gomer Pyle on Liberty.

[CBEscapee]

@El Cid Viscoso

That’s what I admire most about you, your capacity for blinding anger.

It matters to me. I support fair elections and that, my friend, was not a fair election. The only problem is the Tortilla War is taking the heat out of Lopez-Obrador’s movement, and that’s bumping him to the back page of the “World” section of any daily newspaper in the US.

The devil of it (and it’s probably what pisses you off the most) is that without the pressure of Americans like me, Lopez-Obrador would be a puppy piñata. Once our eyes are off him, he’ll go down faster than Gomer Pyle on Liberty.

Give me a break. Without your pressure? Is there no end to some Americans conceit? Your a true fucking pendejo.

I don’t need you to tell me about what was fair down here. I voted for him. They started fucking him over several years before he was even an official candidate. Calderón wouldn’t even have stepped in with (ineffectual) price controls if it wasn’t for the pressure from the left. If anyone winds up getting burned it’s Calderón.

[El_Cid_Viscoso]

@CBEscapee

Give me a break. Without your pressure?

Two words: Salazar Salazar. And fuck you.

[BrainGlutton]

@pantom

There is one country doing well and developing nicely: Brazil. They’re a democracy, and they aren’t weighed down by some stupid general getting his rocks off.

But they do have a socialist president.