# The Prince of Darkness Calls for an End to All Evil, and Maybe France. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 2, 2004, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prince-of-darkness-calls-for-an-end-to-all-evil-and-maybe-france/222269 "2004-01-02T12:30:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prince-of-darkness-calls-for-an-end-to-all-evil-and-maybe-france/222269/1 "2004-01-02T12:30:28Z")
> [@](#): > > Washington’s hawks have sent a public manifesto to President George Bush demanding regime change in Syria and Iran and a Cuba-style military blockade of North Korea backed by planning for a pre-emptive strike on its nuclear sites. > > The manifesto, which was sent on Tuesday, is presented as a “manual for victory” in the war on terrorism. It also calls for Saudi Arabia and France to be treated not as allies but as rivals and possibly enemies. > > The manifesto is contained in a new book by Richard Perle (pictured), a Pentagon adviser and “intellectual guru” of the hardline neo-conservative movement, and David Frum, a former Bush speechwriter. > > [linksies](http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/12/31/1072546588325.html) the irony, the irony , the irony I love that a man who’s caught divulging classified secrutiy information to foreign country, and who has had more conflict of interest “investigations” over the decades , (as well as just this year), than you can shake a stick at still has a high horse. [Perle](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=196390&highlight=perle) [Perle](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&postid=3200842&highlight=perle#post3200842) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prince-of-darkness-calls-for-an-end-to-all-evil-and-maybe-france/222269/2 "2004-01-02T17:30:10Z")
I don’t know what is scarier, **Simon** , the fact that Perle exists or the fact that so few of us know it. Our limey cousins across the Big Damp Spot (the place that used to be Great Britain…) have a phrase that fits perfectly: _barking mad_. I can’t shake the idea that Perle arrived home early of a Saturday, some years back, after an night of fearsome experimentation with exotic organic alkoloids… plopped down in from the TV, and accidentally tuned to _Pinky and the Brain_… You see, he is a little white lab mouse, bent on world domination… ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prince-of-darkness-calls-for-an-end-to-all-evil-and-maybe-france/222269/3 "2004-01-02T17:39:04Z")
Think of the time frame. Perle was violating oaths by passing classified info to an agent of foreign nation in the _seventies_. This Admin has some funny ideas about national security. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prince-of-darkness-calls-for-an-end-to-all-evil-and-maybe-france/222269/4 "2004-01-02T18:47:58Z")
Funny, when I saw Prince of Darkness my immediate thought was that it was about Rumsfeld. It’s hard to keep track of them all. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prince-of-darkness-calls-for-an-end-to-all-evil-and-maybe-france/222269/5 "2004-01-03T04:09:45Z")
I can see why you’d think that. However, Perle had the moniker first. He was also nicknamed Darth Vader. But, Darth Vader “Calls for an End to All Evil, and Maybe France,” doesn’t have the same ring to it. I forgot to remember that not everyone’s familiar w/ Perle’s nickname. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prince-of-darkness-calls-for-an-end-to-all-evil-and-maybe-france/222269/6 "2004-01-03T04:23:41Z")
Perle’s nickname dates back to the 80’s: > [@](#): > > A former assistant secretary of defence under Ronald Reagan, Mr Perle was nicknamed the “Prince of Darkness” for his opposition to arms control. [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2894059.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2894059.stm) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prince-of-darkness-calls-for-an-end-to-all-evil-and-maybe-france/222269/7 "2004-01-03T04:31:10Z")
Well, whaddaya know? I would have sworn they called him the Prince of Darkness because he embodied all that is evil and negative! Who knew it was due to a policy position?! ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prince-of-darkness-calls-for-an-end-to-all-evil-and-maybe-france/222269/8 "2004-01-03T04:45:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > \*\*Well, whaddaya know? I would have sworn they called him the Prince of Darkness because he embodied all that is evil and negative! Who knew it was due to a policy position?! \*\* Maybe one was thought to be indicative of the other. ---
**Author:** ![\_possum\_stalker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/b77776/32.png) [@\_possum\_stalker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_possum_stalker)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prince-of-darkness-calls-for-an-end-to-all-evil-and-maybe-france/222269/9 "2004-01-03T05:05:09Z")
Hmm… a powerful businessman/gov. uppity-up/suspected traitor is leading a shadowy cabal with a manifesto calling for world domination. Wasn’t this the plot of most James Bond movies? He doesn’t have a ray or a beam or a scary submarine, does he? Howabout a slutty besequined henchwoman with a suggestive name? ---
**Author:** ![runinout](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/59ef9b/32.png) [@runinout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/runinout)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prince-of-darkness-calls-for-an-end-to-all-evil-and-maybe-france/222269/10 "2004-01-03T11:10:19Z")
Regime change in Iran and Syria? A blockade of North Korea? Let me know when he has a bad idea…These sound reasonable to us realists. JMO, no way I’m wrong…Runinout ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prince-of-darkness-calls-for-an-end-to-all-evil-and-maybe-france/222269/11 "2004-01-03T16:03:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by runinout \* > \*\*Regime change in Iran and Syria? A blockade of North Korea? > Let me know when he has a bad idea…These sound reasonable to us realists. > JMO, no way I’m wrong…Runinout \*\* This must be some strange use of the word “realist” that I’m unfamiliar with. The military is stretched very thin, yet you think it’s realistic to add three more warfronts. Odd, odd, odd sort of realism. The realists and pragmatists I’m familiar with prefer a wealth of data, estimates and other sorts of involved planning as to the potential consequences, side effects, cost benefit analyses and most importantly, a **compelling national interest** before giving an ok to major, military, foreign policy ventures. Realistically, most all of our combat troops are already tied up and the Congress is looking into whether or not the recent total troop level increases, (due to prevention of retirements etc from the military), are even legal. Generally, the terms realist is applied to the likes of Colin Powell et al not members of the neo-con cabal. You just have an unusual definition of “realist” I suppose. Here, why don’t you try the Christian Science Monitor’s **[Neo-Con Quiz](http://www.csmonitor.com/specials/neocon/quiz/neoconQuiz.html)**. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prince-of-darkness-calls-for-an-end-to-all-evil-and-maybe-france/222269/12 "2004-01-03T16:21:29Z")
Sounds scary. Do we have a link to the Manifesto? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prince-of-darkness-calls-for-an-end-to-all-evil-and-maybe-france/222269/13 "2004-01-03T16:27:01Z")
Yah,sure, youbetcha! [http://www.newamericancentury.org/](http://www.newamericancentury.org/) ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prince-of-darkness-calls-for-an-end-to-all-evil-and-maybe-france/222269/14 "2004-01-03T16:57:06Z")
**Scylla** , AFAICT, it’s just in book form now. But here’re these [Googling[/ur] [url=http://www.aei.org/include/printThis.asp?pageID=82§ionID=7]AEI 1]([http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=+"manual+for+victory"++Richard+Perle+&btnG=Google+Search](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=+%22manual+for+victory%22++Richard+Perle+&btnG=Google+Search)) [AEI 2](http://www.aei.org/publications/bookID.650/book_detail.asp) Depending on content, this info point from the books ad _could_ be scary: **how our government must be changed** if we are to fight the war on terror to victory–not just stalemate I’m not sure of how much importance Perle’s potential personal gains, should increased warfare become a reality, play in his decision to advocate more war. He’s already been caught doing and trying to do things that jeopardize the USA’s national security because they would benefit him personally. I am going to check the local libraries in a moment. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prince-of-darkness-calls-for-an-end-to-all-evil-and-maybe-france/222269/15 "2004-01-03T17:00:16Z")
oops [Googling](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=+%22manual+for+victory%22++Richard+Perle+&btnG=Google+Search) [AEI 1](http://www.aei.org/include/printThis.asp?pageID=82%C2%A7ionID=7) [AEI 2](http://www.aei.org/publications/bookID.650/book_detail.asp) ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prince-of-darkness-calls-for-an-end-to-all-evil-and-maybe-france/222269/16 "2004-01-03T17:00:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SimonX \* > \*\*Here, why don’t you try the Christian Science Monitor’s **[Neo-Con Quiz](http://www.csmonitor.com/specials/neocon/quiz/neoconQuiz.html)**. \*\* You don’t want to know where my head is at right now; I took the quiz (“Liberal”) and I expected there to be a little window to say, “Copy this code to your LiveJournal…” ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prince-of-darkness-calls-for-an-end-to-all-evil-and-maybe-france/222269/17 "2004-01-03T17:04:48Z")
Actually, they are all [cards](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/09/26/iraq/main575285.shtml). That is, unless you run with “Hitler’s Henchmen” theory that’s all the rage with the kids right now. Goebells = Tenent? Eh, Tenent couldn’t hold Goebell’s jock strap. Rummy = Goering? Maybe that tall AF general that stands next to him? Nah. His USAF really is capable of destroying Great Britan, but he’d never brag about it, or try. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prince-of-darkness-calls-for-an-end-to-all-evil-and-maybe-france/222269/18 "2004-01-03T17:08:51Z")
SimonX: Thank you for the link. I will have to buy that book and let you know what I think. I have to confess though, that I’m not seeing the horrible evil yet, but then, I don’t know very much about Perle. As an aside and a serious question: Is this the kind of thing that all rational people are going to find appalling, or do you think it falls into pretty normal left/right bickering? ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prince-of-darkness-calls-for-an-end-to-all-evil-and-maybe-france/222269/19 "2004-01-03T18:15:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > \*\*SimonX: > > Thank you for the link. I will have to buy that book and let you know what I think. > > I have to confess though, that I’m not seeing the horrible evil yet, but then, I don’t know very much about Perle. > > As an aside and a serious question: Is this the kind of thing that all rational people are going to find appalling, or do you think it falls into pretty normal left/right bickering? \*\* First off, I haven’t read the book, yet. So everything that I have to say about it is based on incomplete info; however… Some of what can be found objectionable is based on how you view the role of the USA in the world. Isolationists and others will be concerned over the call for increased use of military force throughout the world, especially when the major benefits to the US consist merely of staving off non-imminent, potential threats, (rather than imminent threats). Realists will be alarmed at the dramatic shift not only in foreign policy, but in the domestic structure necessary to support a series of extended campaigns similar to Iraq. I mean, in some ways, Iraq’s as big of a project as the reconstruction of Western Europe post WWII. For two more of these ventures to run concurrently with the two we have running now will require a massive restructuring and build-up in the military & military spending, (which of course, line Perle’s pockets), as well as the necessary domestic changes to support the massive new found militaristic foreign policy. Those who’re familiar with Perle and his numerous, corporate conflicts of interest will hold suspect his calls for the US gov to spend even more massive amounts of money, (for years to come), with companies that benefit Perle. There’re a number of reasons for “rational people” to be wary of the policies potentially outlined in the “manual for victory.” IMHO, “all rational people” should find these things apalling. Just in a gaming sense of what’s going on, it seems to run counter to the US’s interests. An **immense** of unecessary expense, (liberties, money, and lives), at high risk with a only a dubious potential return. The way the policy is sold in the liner notes gives me a sort of sick feeling in my stomach: " the toughest line is the safest line;" “We do not believe that Americans are fighting this evil to minimize it or manage it. We believe they are fighting to win–to end this evil before it kills again and on a genocidal scale. There is no middle way for Americans: It is victory or holocaust. This book is a manual for victory.” –[David Frum and Richard Perle, from An End to Evil](http://www.aei.org/include/printThis.asp?pageID=82§ionID=7) Isn’t terrorism on a genocidal scale sort of an oxymoron? And the whole, “It is victory or holocaust,” thing strikes me as a somehwat fanciful analysis. Granted that the several thousands of Western victims of Islamist terrorist acts throughout the recent decades are nothing to be trivialized, however comparing these to holocaust seems somewhat disingenuous. But as anecdotal examples of the reaction to this book see these [amazon comments](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1400061946/ref=cm_cr_dp_2_1/104-4858380-8773522?v=glance&s=books&vi=customer-reviews) Here’re some of the more “rational” excerpts from reviews: > [@](#): > > I am a practicing California lawyer and columinst with plenty of experience with U.S. immigration law and constitutional litigation. I must report that much of what is stated as present “law” and policy in this book is simply wrong. Further, where the law is correctly stated, it is exaggerated in context. Disturbingly, where Frum draws reference to several terrorists slipping through immigration enforcement, his proposed remedy is the populace’s submission to a national identification card featuring “biometric data” “like . . . DNA.” (See pages 69 - 70.) > > Given the blatant misrepresentations and exaggerations contained in this book, it leads me to believe that the aim is something other than educating the reader. The book is designed to strike fear and doubt into its readers. Given the credentials of these two, people will unfortunately accept the content of the book without question. There is no question that the eventual aim of Frum and, especially, Perle lies in establishing a quasi-authoritarian state. This book is obviously part of that agenda. > [@](#): > > This is a must read book. I’m giving it 5 stars because its a book that should be bought, not becuase I agree with it. In fact, I only recently became aware of this book and in fact had reached the conclusion that the disruption of the EU was the primary motive behind the war in Iraq before the war even started. > [@](#): > > This book sits atop the heap in its very cogent analysis of the ways in which terror must be confronted, fought and finally crushed. Through separate chapters and many ‘Items’ this book weaves a web around the nature, practice and final end to modern terror. Libya, Saudi, Iran and North Korea are given special attention. The pacifists who want to surrender America to the Burkhaizers are condemned and their mission of giving in to evil is condemned. This book is a wonderful assessment written by two of America’s foremost policy experts. However, lost from this are several key points. For instance; the authors do not thoroughly investigate other examples of how terror has been fought or defeated, where they should have analyzed Israel and Algeria’s experiences. Also there is no real analysis of the role of Preemption in the war on terror, even though this policy has been inaugurated by Mr. Wolfowitz, a colleague of the authors. How many people do I think will actually read the book? Less than 2% of the US electorate. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prince-of-darkness-calls-for-an-end-to-all-evil-and-maybe-france/222269/20 "2004-01-03T18:22:45Z")
Local libraries don’t have it yet. Or anything else by Perle oddly enough. I suspected that the library here @ the U would have at least _something_ by Perle. They’ve got Buchanan out the ass [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prince-of-darkness-calls-for-an-end-to-all-evil-and-maybe-france/222269.md?page=2)