# The Principal Themes of the RNC Convention are Built on Lies and Misrepresentations **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [August 29, 2012, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-principal-themes-of-the-rnc-convention-are-built-on-lies-and-misrepresentations/633037 "2012-08-29T15:44:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-principal-themes-of-the-rnc-convention-are-built-on-lies-and-misrepresentations/633037/301 "2012-09-03T21:56:02Z")
Your position is that nothing on the tax side can have any appreciable effect, right? Its nonfactuality aside, how does resigned acceptance of it constitute a _plan_? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![WarmNPrickly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d78d45/32.png) [@WarmNPrickly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WarmNPrickly)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-principal-themes-of-the-rnc-convention-are-built-on-lies-and-misrepresentations/633037/302 "2012-09-03T22:03:58Z")
From what I’ve heard **Stratocaster** is more or less right. The increase of income tax on people earning over 250K doesn’t do a whole lot. Part of this is because the wealthy earn so much from investments that get taxed at a much lower rate. If we were to tax investments at the same rate as other income, we might start making a dent. Obama has suggested this. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-principal-themes-of-the-rnc-convention-are-built-on-lies-and-misrepresentations/633037/303 "2012-09-03T22:08:59Z")
Elvis, I’m not playing your game. You are the quintessential goal post shifter. I said the tax increases on the table for the rich will not solve the debt crisis. You doubted that and asked for a cite. I gave you one. I have already offered Ryan’s plan as a starting point for debate over what will solve the debt crisis, and asked what the Dems’ counterpoint is. The CBO says Ryan’s plan gets us to a surplus. Let’s not accept anything lock, stock and barrel, or without debate and discussion. But let’s start with something that actually has a shot at solving the problem, per the non-partisan CBO. What is the Democrats’ strategy? Let’s discuss it, and let the better ideas rule the day. Or we could continue the proud tradition of sniping at each other and demonizing the opposition. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-principal-themes-of-the-rnc-convention-are-built-on-lies-and-misrepresentations/633037/304 "2012-09-03T22:23:38Z")
> [@WarmNPrickly](#): > > From what I’ve heard **Stratocaster** is more or less right. The increase of income tax on people earning over 250K doesn’t do a whole lot. Part of this is because the wealthy earn so much from investments that get taxed at a much lower rate. If we were to tax investments at the same rate as other income, we might start making a dent. Obama has suggested this. Has he? He has suggested [The Buffet Rule, but that doesn’t raise a whole lot of revenue, either.](http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/09/chart-of-the-day-buffett-rule-wouldnt-bring-in-much-revenue/245404/) And funny you should mention dents: > [@](#): > > So this Buffet Rule is a great populist proposal if the president wants to score some political points, but it has little practical value. It might provide the government a little bit of additional revenue, but unless extremely aggressive, it wouldn’t make a dent in the nation’s deficit problem. And just to be clear, by “aggressive” here, the author means tax rates upwards of 75%, which aren’t remotely on the table. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-principal-themes-of-the-rnc-convention-are-built-on-lies-and-misrepresentations/633037/305 "2012-09-03T22:34:16Z")
Exactly. And to expand on John’s point, from his cite, that 75% rate on the rich “would cover less than 20% of the year’s deficit.” Of the year’s deficit. We are not going to “tax the rich” out of this problem. ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-principal-themes-of-the-rnc-convention-are-built-on-lies-and-misrepresentations/633037/306 "2012-09-03T22:39:11Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > Mitt Romney is a habitual liar—[533 lies in 30 weeks](http://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2012/08/29/mitt-romney-tells-533-lies-in-30-weeks-steve-benen-documents-them/). > > We can’t expect him to suddenly become a truth-teller on inauguration day if we elect him, and we already know the devastating consequences of having a liar for a president (war on trumped up allegations). Ignoring the link from Patheos (because, really, I don’t feel like getting into who tells the most lies _cough_), it’s amazing to me how quick some people are to forget that the Iraq Resolution had to have been a bipartisan resolution, given how Republicans didn’t have a super majority in Congress. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-principal-themes-of-the-rnc-convention-are-built-on-lies-and-misrepresentations/633037/307 "2012-09-03T22:43:46Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Ignoring the link from Patheos (because, really, I don’t feel like getting into who tells the most lies _cough_), it’s amazing to me how quick some people are to forget that the Iraq Resolution had to have been a bipartisan resolution, given how Republicans didn’t have a super majority in Congress. Actually, they didn’t even have a simple majority in the Senate-- the Democrats did. However, that doesn’t change the fact that the Iraq War was a massive mistake and that it would not have come to pass had Bush not pushed so hard for it. The Dems were minor players, for sure, but this was Bush’s war. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-principal-themes-of-the-rnc-convention-are-built-on-lies-and-misrepresentations/633037/308 "2012-09-03T22:47:27Z")
“Mistake”? No. Lie. The Democrats’ mistake was the one Otter told Flounder he had made: “You fucked up! You trusted us!”. ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-principal-themes-of-the-rnc-convention-are-built-on-lies-and-misrepresentations/633037/309 "2012-09-03T22:56:10Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Actually, they didn’t even have a simple majority in the Senate-- the Democrats did. However, that doesn’t change the fact that the Iraq War was a massive mistake and that it would not have come to pass had Bush not pushed so hard for it. The Dems were minor players, for sure, but this was Bush’s war. And conversely, there would be no Iraq War if Democrats hadn’t voted in favor of the resolution. I fail to see what point you’re trying to make. It’s hard to say someone is a “minor” player when, without that player, the proverbial game ceases to be played. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-principal-themes-of-the-rnc-convention-are-built-on-lies-and-misrepresentations/633037/310 "2012-09-03T23:07:07Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > And conversely, there would be no Iraq War if Democrats hadn’t voted in favor of the resolution. I fail to see what point you’re trying to make. It’s hard to say someone is a “minor” player when, without that player, the proverbial game ceases to be played. Ugh. If you want to debate the Iraq war again, open another thread. I’ve said everything I’m going to say about it in this one. ---
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-principal-themes-of-the-rnc-convention-are-built-on-lies-and-misrepresentations/633037/311 "2012-09-03T23:25:52Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > And conversely, there would be no Iraq War if Democrats hadn’t voted in favor of the resolution. I fail to see what point you’re trying to make. It’s hard to say someone is a “minor” player when, without that player, the proverbial game ceases to be played. Well, I guess if you want to find the Democrats more responsible for the Iraq War than the Pubs, because they believed the lies they were told by the Republicans, you can do that. I guess. Partisan spin, much? ---
**Author:** ![WarmNPrickly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d78d45/32.png) [@WarmNPrickly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WarmNPrickly)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-principal-themes-of-the-rnc-convention-are-built-on-lies-and-misrepresentations/633037/312 "2012-09-04T00:16:44Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Has he? He has suggested [The Buffet Rule, but that doesn’t raise a whole lot of revenue, either.](http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/09/chart-of-the-day-buffett-rule-wouldnt-bring-in-much-revenue/245404/) > > And funny you should mention dents: > > And just to be clear, by “aggressive” here, the author means tax rates upwards of 75%, which aren’t remotely on the table. It’s a start. The revenue is going to be low while we are trying to recover. As long as the economy is in the dumps, we will have to run deficits. We won’t turn it around with spending cuts. Our primary concern should not be the deficit, it should be the economy. We should have been working on the deficit when the economy was in good shape during the Bush years. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-principal-themes-of-the-rnc-convention-are-built-on-lies-and-misrepresentations/633037/313 "2012-09-04T00:18:16Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Exactly. And to expand on John’s point, from his cite, that 75% rate on the rich “would cover less than 20% of the year’s deficit.” Of the year’s deficit. We are not going to “tax the rich” out of this problem. So what? If it covers some of the deficit, it’s worth doing. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-principal-themes-of-the-rnc-convention-are-built-on-lies-and-misrepresentations/633037/314 "2012-09-04T00:42:53Z")
But [they don’t have to do _anything_](http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-08-23/the-deficit-a-stark-choice-for-2012-not-really). > [@](#): > > This is simply what would happen if Congress passed no new spending bills before January. The Bush tax cuts would expire. Automatic cuts to defense, Medicare, and discretionary spending would go into effect. To a pure deficit hawk, it looks pretty good. According to the CBO, the baseline starts reducing debt as a percentage of GDP in 2016; by 2022 debt would decline to 61 percent (the same target the Ryan plan aims for). ---
**Author:** ![WarmNPrickly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d78d45/32.png) [@WarmNPrickly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WarmNPrickly)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-principal-themes-of-the-rnc-convention-are-built-on-lies-and-misrepresentations/633037/315 "2012-09-04T00:48:56Z")
The problem is that the deficit hawks are idiots. They have connected the deficit to the economy in people’s minds, but that’s wrong. A little inflation would not be the end of the world. Without spending the economy can do nothing but continue its stagnation. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-principal-themes-of-the-rnc-convention-are-built-on-lies-and-misrepresentations/633037/316 "2012-09-04T00:54:13Z")
The next paragraph explains why that’s not a good idea: > [@](#): > > Ending the Bush tax cuts and allowing the automatic spending cuts to take effect would limit growth in real GDP next year to half a percent. This abrupt timeline would be destructive to the economy and terrible for jobs. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-principal-themes-of-the-rnc-convention-are-built-on-lies-and-misrepresentations/633037/317 "2012-09-04T00:59:14Z")
Of course. It’s a test to see whose concern over the deficit above all else is sincere. ---
**Author:** ![WarmNPrickly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d78d45/32.png) [@WarmNPrickly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WarmNPrickly)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-principal-themes-of-the-rnc-convention-are-built-on-lies-and-misrepresentations/633037/318 "2012-09-04T00:59:46Z")
Exactly, eliminating the Bush tax cuts for average americans is a terrible idea. The best plan is to run deficits until the economy gets on its feet. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-principal-themes-of-the-rnc-convention-are-built-on-lies-and-misrepresentations/633037/319 "2012-09-04T01:08:02Z")
> [@WarmNPrickly](#): > > Exactly, eliminating the Bush tax cuts for average americans is a terrible idea. The best plan is to run deficits until the economy gets on its feet. How much debt are you willing to take on, as a percent of GDP, before you decide that’s not so good an idea? ---
**Author:** ![WarmNPrickly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d78d45/32.png) [@WarmNPrickly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WarmNPrickly)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-principal-themes-of-the-rnc-convention-are-built-on-lies-and-misrepresentations/633037/320 "2012-09-04T01:20:04Z")
I’ll let the policy wonks work out the details. The point is that the debt is a non-issue. The issue is the economy. We can’t solve the debt problem until the economy is solved. Solving the debt problem first kills the economy which then makes the debt problem worse. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-principal-themes-of-the-rnc-convention-are-built-on-lies-and-misrepresentations/633037.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-principal-themes-of-the-rnc-convention-are-built-on-lies-and-misrepresentations/633037.md?page=17)