# The prisoner dilemma **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 11, 2009, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prisoner-dilemma/520853 "2009-12-11T12:19:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2009, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prisoner-dilemma/520853/21 "2009-12-11T15:38:02Z")
Oh, and for the purposes of business regulations, your yard sale is a business: > **[Your Yard Sale Is Illegal](https://reason.com/2009/05/07/your-yard-sale-is-illegal/)** > > Thinking of having a yard sale this weekend? Before you do, be sure to consult CSPC Publication #254 \[PDF\]. This... So as I said, don’t resell anything you have in any venue unless you know it is lead-free. ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2009, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prisoner-dilemma/520853/22 "2009-12-11T15:51:39Z")
> [@amarone](#): > > Points 2 - 4 have merit, but this argument doesn’t stand up. It’s not as if there is a marketplace of potential criminals just waiting for the opportunity to be “hired”. McDonalds hires a fixed number of people because there is a set number of restaurants with a set number of jobs. Not everyone can become a McDonalds employee (simultaneously). > > The opportunity for crime, however, is almost infinite. If someone wants to commit a crime, they can do. They do not have to wait for opportunity to be created by existing criminals being locked up. My cite will be Steven Levitt: [http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1162/003355300554908?cookieSet=1&journalCode=qjec](http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1162/003355300554908?cookieSet=1&journalCode=qjec) When a low level drug dealer is arrested, the position will be filled. Assuming that the incarcerated person does not stop being a criminal, a larger population of criminals is created. (A McDonald employee that is fired is probably more likely to stop flipping burgers, so I admit the analogy is flawed) ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2009, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prisoner-dilemma/520853/23 "2009-12-11T15:57:02Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > My cite will be Steven Levitt: [http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1162/003355300554908?cookieSet=1&journalCode=qjec](http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1162/003355300554908?cookieSet=1&journalCode=qjec) > > When a low level drug dealer is arrested, the position will be filled. Assuming that the incarcerated person does not stop being a criminal, a larger population of criminals is created. The position is likely to be filled by someone who is already a criminal, so they are just moving between jobs, not being recruited from the law-abiding classes. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2009, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prisoner-dilemma/520853/24 "2009-12-11T16:09:30Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Here’s one for you: the Honest Services Law. The Supreme Court is hearing a case on it now. Basically, if you lie to anyone in the course of your employment, you are committing a felony. Interestingly, the government is exempt from the law.🙂 That is not what it says. Unless by “lie to anyone in the course of your employment” you mean “attempt to defraud”. > [@adaher](#): > > Oh, and for the purposes of business regulations, your yard sale is a business: > > [http://reason.com/blog/2009/05/07/yo...ale-is-illegal](http://reason.com/blog/2009/05/07/yo...ale-is-illegal) > > So as I said, don’t resell anything you have in any venue unless you know it is lead-free. In the sense that you are not allowed to knowingly sell a dangerous product, yes it is a business. I didn’t notice if violating those laws was considered a felony. Your entire statement is intentionally alarmist, misleading and ridiculous. I stand by my belief that unless you are doing something that is intentionally malicious, your chances of inadvertantly committing a felony are small. And your chances of getting arrested, tried and convicted for such a felony are virtually non-existant. ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2009, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prisoner-dilemma/520853/25 "2009-12-11T17:47:18Z")
> [@amarone](#): > > The position is likely to be filled by someone who is already a criminal, so they are just moving between jobs, not being recruited from the law-abiding classes. I can’t agree with you there. Firstly I don’t subscribe to the idea of a “law-abiding class”, secondly all people have to start somewhere, and dealing drugs is an “entry level position” to the criminal economy, just like flipping burgers is to the legal economy. ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2009, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prisoner-dilemma/520853/26 "2009-12-11T17:51:25Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > That is not what it says. Unless by “lie to anyone in the course of your employment” you mean “attempt to defraud”. > > In the sense that you are not allowed to knowingly sell a dangerous product, yes it is a business. I didn’t notice if violating those laws was considered a felony. > Your entire statement is intentionally alarmist, misleading and ridiculous. I stand by my belief that unless you are doing something that is intentionally malicious, your chances of inadvertantly committing a felony are small. And your chances of getting arrested, tried and convicted for such a felony are virtually non-existant. From what I understand. in Oklahoma you can get sentenced to life for selling a joint to a friend within 2000 feet of a public park. I don’t think selling a joint to a pal is intentionally malicious. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2009, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prisoner-dilemma/520853/27 "2009-12-11T18:01:57Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Oh, and for the purposes of business regulations, your yard sale is a business: > > [http://reason.com/blog/2009/05/07/your-yard-sale-is-illegal](http://reason.com/blog/2009/05/07/your-yard-sale-is-illegal) > > So as I said, don’t resell anything you have in any venue unless you know it is lead-free. But your own cite says that nobody, including people holding garage sales, is required to test for lead. On page 5: > [@](#): > > How can I determine if something has lead? > Resellers, in particular, need to make sound business decisions about the products they sell. As a practical matter, you can: > › Test the product (though not required); > › Not accept the product; > › Use your best judgment based on your knowledge of the product; or, > › Contact the manufacturer about questionable products. The CPSC says you can use your own best judgment about whether something intended for small kids may have lead. You aren’t making a very good case at all. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2009, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prisoner-dilemma/520853/28 "2009-12-11T19:09:35Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > We jail people for drugs and have not diminished the use at all. > We have for profit prison systems. They want more and more prisoners ,for longer and longer time. When a person is in prison, they will try to find a way to keep them there. It makes more money for them. This. The combination of harsh laws for minor possession of drugs combined with a for-profit prison system is naturally leading to a situation where putting plenty of non-violent people in prison is enriching somebody’s bottom line. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2009, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prisoner-dilemma/520853/29 "2009-12-11T19:19:28Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > This. > > The combination of harsh laws for minor possession of drugs combined with a for-profit prison system is naturally leading to a situation where putting plenty of non-violent people in prison is enriching somebody’s bottom line. Remember in PA. where judges were bribed to put more young kids in jail? Money is a corrupting influence in the legal system. It will harm the poor the most. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2009, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prisoner-dilemma/520853/30 "2009-12-11T19:28:42Z")
The statistics given in the OP need explanation. Just what is causing such a disparity? Or put another way, how does for example Britain maintain a civilized society while needing to imprison only 1/7 as many people per capita? In general, I can only think of a few categories of possible explanations:[ul][_]The US penalizes things the other countries don’t.[_]The US has a hardened urban criminal subculture other countries don’t (believable for Norway, less so for Britain).Draconian enforcement of the law, including a robust death penalty, deters more criminals in other countries than in the US (believable for China, less so for Britain or Norway). [/ul] ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2009, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prisoner-dilemma/520853/31 "2009-12-11T19:36:20Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > From what I understand. in Oklahoma you can get sentenced to life for selling a joint to a friend within 2000 feet of a public park. I don’t think selling a joint to a pal is intentionally malicious. It may not be malicious to your friend. But it may be malicious to the rest of society. Openly selling drugs in a public park makes the park a place where mothers can’t take their children, lowers property prices, etc. Yes there’s a difference between casual marijuana dealing and , say, crack dealing. But the difference isn’t because of the type of drug involved, it’s because of the type of _people_ involved. Most crack users are dangerous to society, most marijuana users are not. And the reason is that most marijuana users have enough sense not to conduct deals in a public park. So the Oklahoma law you mention is not so draconian…it serves a legitimate purpose in keeping parks drug-free. And quite possibly helps the police locate the minority of marijuana users who go on to more dangerous activitivies. Yes, the rich white kids on college campuses smoke freely while the poor black kids get jailed.But part of the reason is that the rich white kids understand the rules of society, and know how to be remain discrete and _non-malicious_. Life ain’t always fair. ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2009, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prisoner-dilemma/520853/32 "2009-12-11T19:48:03Z")
In the November 2009 _Atlantic_ they mention that Jim Webb of Virginia (my state) is starting to work on prison reform. The article states that the US incarcerates 25 million people (25% of the planet’s prisoners) and that the privatized-prison industry houses 10% of that. Remember that the US tends to also use prisons as places to store the mentally ill. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2009, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prisoner-dilemma/520853/33 "2009-12-11T19:59:23Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > The US is currently best in the world at incarcerating people. By a pretty wide margin. About 5 times as many people in prison as England, 7 times more than China and more than 10 times as many as Norway. Tiny little England has more people in prison than all of China? That’s incredible. ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2009, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prisoner-dilemma/520853/34 "2009-12-11T20:12:05Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > It may not be malicious to your friend. But it may be malicious to the rest of society. Openly selling drugs in a public park makes the park a place where mothers can’t take their children, lowers property prices, etc. That’s a bit dishonest of you, I did not say “openly” or “in” a public park. The law applies even if you slip the joint to your friend unseen, 500 yards away from the park. In a car. > [@chappachula](#): > > Yes there’s a difference between casual marijuana dealing and , say, crack dealing. > But the difference isn’t because of the type of drug involved, it’s because of the type of _people_ involved. Most crack users are dangerous to society, most marijuana users are not. And the reason is that most marijuana users have enough sense not to conduct deals in a public park. Why are cocaine users dangerous to society? > [@chappachula](#): > > So the Oklahoma law you mention is not so draconian…it serves a legitimate purpose in keeping parks drug-free. And quite possibly helps the police locate the minority of marijuana users who go on to more dangerous activitivies. So by attempting to put all pot smokers in jail we will also be able to put some pot smokers who might become dangerous in jail? Would you think that spending a few years in federal prison is likely to make you more or less dangerous? Also, why not put everyone who litters in jail in order to get the litter bugs that might move on to more dangerous activities? > [@chappachula](#): > > Yes, the rich white kids on college campuses smoke freely while the poor black kids get jailed.But part of the reason is that the rich white kids understand the rules of society, and know how to be remain discrete and _non-malicious_. So you agree that the drug laws are racist? > [@chappachula](#): > > Life ain’t always fair. Just because something is a certain way, doesn’t mean it is right. People die from cancer, so we should not try to cure them? Life aint fair, so we shouldn’t attempt justice or fairness. Bad things happen, so we shouldn’t try to stop them? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2009, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prisoner-dilemma/520853/35 "2009-12-11T20:23:22Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > It may not be malicious to your friend. But it may be malicious to the rest of society. Openly selling drugs in a public park makes the park a place where mothers can’t take their children, lowers property prices, etc. That doesn’t necessarily seem reasonable to me. If you replaced “malicious” with “problem-causing”, then perhaps. But “malicious”, to me, implies\* intent\* to cause harm, not just actual causing of harm. ---
**Author:** ![Skara\_Brae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f0a364/32.png) [@Skara\_Brae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skara_Brae)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2009, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prisoner-dilemma/520853/36 "2009-12-11T21:21:53Z")
I was listening to NPS last night and they were talking about the huge number of non-violent illegal immigrants that are in jail for immigration related issues. Would an improved immigration policy cut down in this? ---
**Author:** ![horhay\_achoa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ccd318/32.png) [@horhay\_achoa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/horhay_achoa)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2009, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prisoner-dilemma/520853/37 "2009-12-11T21:37:52Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > It may not be malicious to your friend. But it may be malicious to the rest of society. Openly selling drugs in a public park makes the park a place where mothers can’t take their children, lowers property prices, etc. I don’t want to turn this into a drug law debate, but if drugs were legal people wouldn’t be selling them in parks, and mothers could feel safe taking their kids to a park. Drug laws create criminals out of otherwise law abiding people. Get rid of them and the prison population will go down. ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2009, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prisoner-dilemma/520853/38 "2009-12-11T21:56:22Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > That’s a bit dishonest of you, I did not say “openly” or “in” a public park. The law applies even if you slip the joint to your friend unseen, 500 yards away from the park. In a car. Your reply is misleading, while you didn’t say ‘openly’ nor did you say ‘500 yards away from the park, in a car.’ [QUOTE=Stoneburg] Why are cocaine users dangerous to society? [/QUOTE] I disagree with **Chappachula** , it’s ALL about the drug. When is the last time you’ve heard of someone with weed rage? Cocaine does different things than weed does. Frankly, the potential is FAR greater for violence with cokeheads than with potheads. This is 20 years of experience dealing with both professionally. [QUOTE=Stoneburg] So you agree that the drug laws are racist? [/QUOTE] I personally do, yes. Not that the question was sent my way or anything, but oh yeah, they’re racist. Not intentionally/directly so, but… [QUOTE=Stoneburg] Just because something is a certain way, doesn’t mean it is right. People die from cancer, so we should not try to cure them? Life aint fair, so we shouldn’t attempt justice or fairness. Bad things happen, so we shouldn’t try to stop them? [/QUOTE] No, you’re right about that, but the fact is people know that drugs are illegal and still they engage. People know that theft is against the law, and still they steal. We’re at the point where we need to effect some common sense legislation instead of the at once heavy-handed and limp-wristed way we do business. Crimes like marijuana possession shouldn’t be crimes at all. Crimes like child sex offenses ought to be punished harshly and forever, whether that’s death for the truly violent monsters or it’s a penal colony in death valley. I think there isn’t enough fear of reprisal in society which is why we have so many incarcerated. The weak stance on violent crimes and the freedom with which the criminals run the prisons are causing more crime, not less because we put more petty criminals in and get more advanced criminals out. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2009, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prisoner-dilemma/520853/39 "2009-12-11T22:16:37Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > From what I understand. in Oklahoma you can get sentenced to life for selling a joint to a friend within 2000 feet of a public park. I don’t think selling a joint to a pal is intentionally malicious. It’s intentionally commiting an illegal act. I wasn’t able to find the particular law for Oklahoma, but I did find a story where a bunch of people were arrested and one guy was sentenced to 45 years for violating a similar statute in Texas. It was later found that the evidence was fabricated and the ruling was overturned. 45 years still sounds extreme though. I think it’s naive to think that criminals will just disappear if you legalized drugs. The mob didn’t just disappear when prohibition was lifted, did they? Many of these people are people who can’t or won’t find legitimate jobs and turn to the black markets because they can make a quick buck. What do you think will happen drugs were legal? Do you think Merck or Phizor is going to gangbangers from the inner city sell their products? They’d hire college (mostly white) grads just like the rest of their pharma reps. The drug dealers and gangs would just be forced to find some other illegal racket to make money. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2009, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prisoner-dilemma/520853/40 "2009-12-11T23:47:56Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#): > > Tiny little England has more people in prison than all of China? That’s incredible. I presume the OP meant per capita, i.e., the _percentage_ of the population that’s incarcerated. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prisoner-dilemma/520853.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prisoner-dilemma/520853.md?page=3)