# The prisoner dilemma **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 11, 2009, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prisoner-dilemma/520853 "2009-12-11T12:19:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prisoner-dilemma/520853/41 "2009-12-12T03:21:32Z")
From the December 2009 Harper’s (hardcopy here, and you have to subscribe for the e-version, so no linky): > [@](#): > > Geo is one of the two largest private prison companies in the United States; it and its competitor, Corrections Corporation of America, control more than two-thirds of this country’s private jails. > [@](#): > > Last year, the ratio of prisoners to free U.S. citizens reached 1:100, and the trend shows little sign of reversing. > [@](#): > > For anyone still unconvinced that prisons are a great investment, it should be noted that Buffet’s own company, Berkshire Hathaway, owns a 7 percent stake in Wells Fargo bank, which in turn is one of the Geo Group’s largest shareholders. > [@](#): > > When a Bank of America analyst, for example, asked if “discretionary” programming in Geo Group prisons might be cut, Geo CEO Zoley responded that “basic education” and “vocational training” were “available to be reduced.” ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prisoner-dilemma/520853/42 "2009-12-12T09:43:05Z")
> [@buttonjockey308](#): > > I disagree with **Chappachula** , it’s ALL about the drug. When is the last time you’ve heard of someone with weed rage? Cocaine does different things than weed does. Frankly, the potential is FAR greater for violence with cokeheads than with potheads. This is 20 years of experience dealing with both professionally. Of course a stimulant will cause a different (ie: more active and outgoing) reaction than a sedative. And my experience, which is easily backed up with stats, is that alcohol is the drug most likely to cause violent crimes. One of the most available drugs in any western society. In regards to the original question I think my answer would be something like this: 1. Decriminalize all recreational drug use and re-classify the narcotic problem as a health issue and not a criminal issue. This should be retroactive. 2. Offer conditional amnesty to current prisoners serving time for less serious crimes (ie: not murder or organized crime). Let’s say “If you behave well for the coming 6 months the rest of your time will be converted to probation, this is your chance, take it”. 3. Remove mandatory minimums, let the judges make the time fit the crime. MMS is a despicable way for politicians to pick up points while ruining peoples lives and handicapping judges. 4. Socialize the industry. Seriously. You **can not** have a system which has incentives for driving up sentence time and putting more people in jail. There should be no private prisons. Period. ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prisoner-dilemma/520853/43 "2009-12-12T09:47:08Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > It’s intentionally commiting an illegal act. So is not wearing a burkha if you live in certain countries. And it is punishable by death. > [@msmith537](#): > > What do you think will happen drugs were legal? Do you think Merck or Phizor is going to gangbangers from the inner city sell their products? They’d hire college (mostly white) grads just like the rest of their pharma reps. The drug dealers and gangs would just be forced to find some other illegal racket to make money. Fortunately I don’t have to think, I can just look at a country that had a drug problem and chose that path. I give you [Portugal](http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=portugal-drug-decriminalization) ---
**Author:** ![fifty-six](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@fifty-six](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fifty-six)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prisoner-dilemma/520853/44 "2009-12-12T10:10:32Z")
Prison is not all that bad once you get use to it. That is once of the reasons people go back to jail. Plus if you jail a youngster for several years they are left so far behind that it is almost imposable for them to rejoin society in a normal manner. Under 18 year olds should NEVER be tried as adults regardless of the crime. They are not adults. Prison sentences should be shorter and require productive work. Drug possession should not land you in jail. Much more community service less jail time. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prisoner-dilemma/520853/45 "2009-12-12T13:06:04Z")
I disagree about mandatory minimums. I do think they should only apply to violent crimes, but understand that mandatory minimums and three strikes laws came about because there were lenient judges who were letting people off with a slap on the wrist for beating up and robbing old ladies. and of course having gotten off light, their crimes would escalate until someone got killed. From about 1985-1991, it seemed like every murder in Florida was done by someone with a rap sheet of 10 violent felonies or more. The idea that such people would be free to prey on society was insane, so the legislatures took action where the judicial system failed. A local guy, Percy Campbell, known nationally as “crime boy”, was just arrested for his 39th felony. I just think it’s insane that a 27-year old can be free with 39 felonies. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2009, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prisoner-dilemma/520853/46 "2009-12-13T02:45:41Z")
Since this is in GD, I feel free in venting my spleen on this. I think this whole incarceration business, aside from enriching the owners and workers in prison, is a way of keeping blacks in their place. My sister, a middle class white, and her boyfriend (ditto) used cocaine for years and not for one instant did they fear or even think about be prosecuted. Now with lower class blacks the situtation is totally different. I just read something like that a black male has one chance in three of spending some time in the clink during his life. It is inconceivable that a white would have been arrested in the circumstances surrounding that of Henry L. Gates. He showed id showing that that was his address! Among other things, many black males are permanently disfranchised as a result. Although only about half lf all inmates are in jail for drug offenses, many robberies and burglaries are for the purpose of getting money to buy drugs. Meantime, there is a major industry of supplying drugs whose profits are guaranteed by the government. And all the bribery of cops and others. The so-called war on drugs is as likely to stop drug usage as the Afghan war is to defeat the Taliban. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2009, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prisoner-dilemma/520853/47 "2009-12-13T05:22:44Z")
\*\*I just read something like that a black male has one chance in three of spending some time in the clink during his life. It is inconceivable that a white would have been arrested in the circumstances surrounding that of Henry L. Gates. He showed id showing that that was his address! \*\* True, but he also flew off the handle, which regardless of your race, is likely to get you cuffed. Now as far as African-Americans and prison go, I don’t think there’s much discrimination anymore as far as juries and verdicts. Almost all African-Americans with a rap sheet earned that rap sheet. Where I do think there is still discrimination is in punishment. An African-American male is far more likely to be sentenced to prison than a male of any other race, and to get longer sentences. Now as for your white friends doing cocaine, I can assure you that they had a good chance of getting arrested and sentenced to a prison sentence. My father spent a long time in jail on drug offenses. They got lucky. And I’ve also known a lot of black men who have done things and had never gotten caught to date. The war on drugs is stupid, but I don’t think it would change incarceration rates by race much. I don’t see the war on drugs as particularly discriminatory in its effect. Young African-American males who commit petty crimes are usually doing it for instant gratification: they are short on cash, they want some cash, they go get some cash. If they don’t spend it on drugs, they’ll spend it on something else. ---
**Author:** ![Francis\_Vaughan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/francis_vaughan/32/3093_2.png) [@Francis\_Vaughan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_Vaughan)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2009, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prisoner-dilemma/520853/48 "2009-12-13T11:41:20Z")
Couple of points. Lots of silly overregulating laws are not putting people in prison. If you want overregulated, you should look at the EU. Yet they don’t have the same impriosnment rate. So what puts people in prison in the US? Easy, look at the source. [Home | Bureau of Justice Statistics](http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/prisons.htm) Violence 50%, property 21%, drugs 20%, public order 8%. Of course this is what a person was convicted of, not the root cause of the crime. So drugs could be expected to account for a reasonable amount of the other crimes. So, what might be different about the US? How about: [Home | Office of Justice Programs](http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/mhppji.htm) PDF of full paper there. The staggering statistc that 2/3rds of women and over half of all men in prison suffer from some sort of mental health issue. It is complex, but a few issues standout initially. Mental health problems along with either alcohol or drug abuse is common. With violent crime, criminals with mental issues are less likely to use a firearm. Homelessness is a pretty good start to being imprisoned. Mental issues are a good start to being homeless. Whites had a slightly higher incidence of mental issues, followed by blacks and then hispanics. But not a lot of difference. As has been noted earlier. There are a range of reasons to incarcerate someone. But there is a real possibility that the US has simply made prisons de-facto mental institutions. So, rather than taxpayer funded mental care, you get taxpayer funded incarceration. Just more expensive, privatised, and less likey to help the inmates. The other major risk in going to prison is being poor. The most important thing that determines if you are likely to be poor in the US is not being white. I rather suspect that getting the mentally ill out of the prisons, and sorting out some of the issues with the poverty stricken, would leave a hard core of career criminals to be imprisoned, that might leave the US with an imprisonment rate not a lot different to the rest of the world. Maybe. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2009, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prisoner-dilemma/520853/49 "2009-12-13T12:11:12Z")
**So, what might be different about the US? How about: [Home | Office of Justice Programs](http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/mhppji.htm) PDF of full paper there. The staggering statistc that 2/3rds of women and over half of all men in prison suffer from some sort of mental health issue. It is complex, but a few issues standout initially** That’s a good point I’d forgotten about. In recent decades, we’ve been substituting prisons for mental health facilities. ---
**Author:** ![Blackberry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blackberry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackberry)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2009, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prisoner-dilemma/520853/50 "2009-12-13T21:19:11Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Well, part of the problem is too many laws. Practically every American commits a few felonies a day without knowing it. This is even more likely if they are currently working. All kinds of regulations you probably unknowingly violate on a daily basis. Everyone should read the book Three Felonies a Day. If the government wants to get you, they’ll get you for something, because you’ve done something. Yes, there are a lot of silly, obscure laws on the books. No, they don’t have much of an effect on incarceration rates, since most prisoners are not convicted of those crimes. > [@](#): > > Another problem is prison for nonviolent offenders. We need to decide what prison is for: is it for rehabilitation? For punishment? Or it is to keep society safe from predators? Right now, it’s all of those things, and none of those things. Depends on your crime. With white collar criminals, it’s almost always about retribution. White collar criminals have a low recidivism rate, and as long as they are no longer allowed to practice the career that originally got them in trouble, are no longer any threat to society whatsoever. So it’s pure revenge. With rapists and murderers, it’s about protecting society. With most other offenders, it’s about rehabilitiation. In theory. > > I say prison should be reserved for violent offenders. Alternative punishments should be devised for the Bernie Madoffs and drug offenders, tax evaders and pickpockets. From a simple humanitarian perspective, it makes no sense to place nonviolent offenders in cages with animals who take joy in sadism. The problem with that is that white collar crime has an ENORMOUS detrimental effect on society and is already underpunished, which is a big part of why it’s so prevalent. The possibility of serving hard time is not much of a deterrent to many types of criminals, but white collar criminals are one type that may actually respond to that threat. They don’t think of themselves as common criminals, in part because the justice system doesn’t treat them as such. But it should. > [@Blake](#): > > Obviously we should stop people committing crimes. The question is how we do that without prison to deter them. Better education is often touted as a solution, but there’s little evidence that it works in reality because the groups most prone to imprisonment are also the pnes least prone ot take advantage of education. > > We could just not lock up criminals, but I’m not sure most Americans would appreciate a return to 1970s level crime rates. > > So we’re left with finding an alternative to im > prisonment. We’ve been looking fr 200 years now. Good luck finding it. There is no one easy solution (including and especially prison), but there are alternatives to incarceration that have been shown to be effective for certain populations. We need to keep researching this area and creating policy accordingly. > [@adaher](#): > > \*\*So you think that keeping people in prison reduces crime levels in general? \*\* > > I’d say that’s obvious. One less criminal on the streets means at the very least one less crime. With some criminals, it prevents dozens of violent crimes. Well then you might be surprised to learn that incarceration actually increases recidivism rates, when other factors are controlled for. Few prisoners are lifers, meaning they’ll be back in society eventually. And many are young and would age out of crime on their own if left to their own devices (as the vast majority of criminals do), but incarcerating them decreases the chance of that happening. Not that I’m suggesting that we should leave all young criminals to their own devices, but we do need to be mindful about how deeply we immerse them into the system, because erring on the side of “caution” doesn’t serve anybody’s interests. > [@amarone](#): > > Points 2 - 4 have merit, but this argument doesn’t stand up. It’s not as if there is a marketplace of potential criminals just waiting for the opportunity to be “hired”. McDonalds hires a fixed number of people because there is a set number of restaurants with a set number of jobs. Not everyone can become a McDonalds employee (simultaneously). > > The opportunity for crime, however, is almost infinite. If someone wants to commit a crime, they can do. They do not have to wait for opportunity to be created by existing criminals being locked up. This is true of some crimes, but not things like low level drug dealing. It’s only profitable to a certain point. And it’s only profitable at all because of our misguided drug laws. > [@adaher](#): > > Oh, and for the purposes of business regulations, your yard sale is a business: > > [http://reason.com/blog/2009/05/07/your-yard-sale-is-illegal](http://reason.com/blog/2009/05/07/your-yard-sale-is-illegal) > > So as I said, don’t resell anything you have in any venue unless you know it is lead-free. And I’m sure the millions of individuals serving hard time for these and similar offenses wish they had been warned about this great threat before it was too late. Oh no wait. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prisoner-dilemma/520853/51 "2009-12-14T02:35:53Z")
Man, I thought this was going to be a thread about the [game theory concept](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma). Was this intentional? [/offtopic] ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prisoner-dilemma/520853/52 "2009-12-14T04:19:46Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > 1. The US has more prisoners than ANY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD. And harsher punishments than most. Yet still has the highest crime rate of all comparable countries. They also spend more money on the “War against Drugs” than anyone, yet still has more drug use than most countries. Sumthin aint workin. If it gets worse when you scratch, scratch harder? The problem is the revolving door system of justice that we have. Criminals know that if they get caught, nothing serious will happen to them in most cases. They’ll get a slap on the wrist, an ass-chewing by a judge and then they are back on the streets doing what they do. The solution is a two pronged approach. Education and intervention up front to prevent crimes. Incarceration for the full length of sentence for active criminals. ---
**Author:** ![Blackberry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blackberry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackberry)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prisoner-dilemma/520853/53 "2009-12-14T04:52:35Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > The problem is the revolving door system of justice that we have. Criminals know that if they get caught, nothing serious will happen to them in most cases. They’ll get a slap on the wrist, an ass-chewing by a judge and then they are back on the streets doing what they do. > \ We continue to increase sentences and our sentences are already way out of proportion to other countries…so that can’t be the difference. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prisoner-dilemma/520853/54 "2009-12-15T03:22:12Z")
I think US culture is fundamentally different from European countries’. Compare England. Century upon century of history and often world-beating achievement. Germany, France, Italy, Spain… all of them have a huge advantage in volume and depth of historical lessons and traditions. The US culture OTOH is a rather ad-hoc imposition following the extermination of the natives, often by amateurs who succeed(ed) only because of superior technology and lack of other rivals. The US has plenty of advantages too. But culturally, a good slice of the population is still sorting out quotidian scandals like you’ll see in reality TV shows, tabloid news, or the juiciest meltdowns. I think this explains the greater popularity of religion in America- people are more wild and therefore have more to gain from it. I think this also explains the greater incarceration rate- people fail to make wise decisions because of a relatively immature cultural background. ---
**Author:** ![Cesario](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Cesario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cesario)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prisoner-dilemma/520853/55 "2009-12-15T03:38:09Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > We should de-criminalize recreational drugs. > > Period. That would solve a lot of our prison population issues right there, as well as dry up a major revenue source for organized crime, leading to lower instances of violent crime as a secondary effect. Sure, won’t kill the mob on its own, but it will hit them where it hurts, the pocketbook. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prisoner-dilemma/520853/56 "2009-12-15T03:53:18Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > \*\*I just read something like that a black male has one chance in three of spending some time in the clink during his life. It is inconceivable that a white would have been arrested in the circumstances surrounding that of Henry L. Gates. He showed id showing that that was his address! \*\* > > True, but he also flew off the handle, which regardless of your race, is likely to get you cuffed. Sure, but if he’d been a white man nobody would have called the cops and the cops probably wouldn’t have approached him if they had. > [@Clothahump](#): > > The problem is the revolving door system of justice that we have. Criminals know that if they get caught, nothing serious will happen to them in most cases. They’ll get a slap on the wrist, an ass-chewing by a judge and then they are back on the streets doing what they do. > > The solution is a two pronged approach. Education and intervention up front to prevent crimes. Incarceration for the full length of sentence for active criminals. Highly doubtful that sentencing (or incarceration length) is directly linked to the rate of recidivism. Minority offenders are significantly more likely to receive custodial sentences, receive harsher custodial sentences, yet are more likely to commit additional crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prisoner-dilemma/520853/57 "2009-12-15T04:31:50Z")
Does plea-bargaining come into it? I heard anecdotally that if nobody ever pleaded down their cases and every felony charge went to trial, the system would collapse. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prisoner-dilemma/520853/58 "2009-12-15T05:42:25Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > The problem is the revolving door system of justice that we have. Criminals know that if they get caught, nothing serious will happen to them in most cases. They’ll get a slap on the wrist, an ass-chewing by a judge and then they are back on the streets doing what they do. You don’t actually know anything about the criminal justice system, do you? As **fifty-six** has alluded to, most people who enter the prison system early find that it isn’t actually that bad of a place; full of sociopaths and violent people, certainly, but they’re more controlled than in the real world of the lower socio-economic classes, and with a priesthood of professional guardians (penal guards) to keep order and regulate behavior. Unless you end up being at the low end of the prison spectrum–child rapists and similar–it’s actually more like hanging out with your buddies in high school, trading bullshit stories about the big score that almost was, or the bitch who sold you out for another guy. Most of these people don’t want to be reformed in any significant way; they’re actually living the best life they know, and many commit crimes with the intention (whether conscious or otherwise) to return to prison, so serving a “full sentence” or making three strikes, or so forth isn’t really a penalty. For the genuinely fucked up, this is the only place they actually fit in. Try reading [Psychopathy: Antisocial, Criminal, and Violent Behavior](http://www.amazon.com/Psychopathy-Antisocial-Criminal-Violent-Behavior/dp/1572308648) to get an understanding of how most career criminals think. Reducing or eliminating penalties for “drug crime” would provide a modest reduction in the criminal population–certainly cannabis should be decriminalized as a dangerous drug–but many so-called recreational drugs like methamphetamines, rock cocaine, heroine, et cetera are clearly both psychologically and sociologically harmful and most people cannot consume them in recreational regimes. Blind decriminalization of drugs is not a blanket prescription for reducing crime, much of which is actually rooted in the lack of economic and educational opportunities of particular socio-ethnic groups, which is itself rooted in the culture of those groups in rejecting educational and economic opportunities when they are available. Reducing this problem to, “We should decriminalize drug use and distribution” is an approach beyond simplistic. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prisoner-dilemma/520853/59 "2009-12-15T19:25:30Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > Of course a stimulant will cause a different (ie: more active and outgoing) reaction than a sedative. And my experience, which is easily backed up with stats, is that alcohol is the drug most likely to cause violent crimes. One of the most available drugs in any western society. > In regards to the original question I think my answer would be something like this: > > 1. Decriminalize all recreational drug use and re-classify the narcotic problem as a health issue and not a criminal issue. This should be retroactive. > > 2. Offer conditional amnesty to current prisoners serving time for less serious crimes (ie: not murder or organized crime). Let’s say “If you behave well for the coming 6 months the rest of your time will be converted to probation, this is your chance, take it”. > > 3. Remove mandatory minimums, let the judges make the time fit the crime. MMS is a despicable way for politicians to pick up points while ruining peoples lives and handicapping judges. > > 4. Socialize the industry. Seriously. You **can not** have a system which has incentives for driving up sentence time and putting more people in jail. There should be no private prisons. Period. 1. Doing number one seems like a good idea until you take into consideration the geopolitical and local legal impact. In a place like, say, the Netherlands (pop. 16mil) having a small percent hooked on opiates contributes very little to the global drug trade, whereas the US (pop. 300 mil) contributes significantly more. The fact remains that all drugs, including weed but on a lesser scale, fund real criminals and terrorists around the world. It’s not smart (as the ‘war on drugs’ has shown us) to force that market to be supplied. Personally, I would make weed legal, tax and regulate it the same way the gov’t does cigarettes and hyper criminalize all other drugs, so that even the slightest amount sends you to jail forever. This of course after weed was taxed so that the tax money from that could go directly into treatment for opiates/narcotic addiction. Further, making it retroactive could force the people into a lawsuit hole from which there is no fiscal return. Bad idea. 2. This makes sense, with the caveat that there be an absolute requirement to enroll in job training and perform community service to be determined by the nature of their crime. 3. Aside from my point in #1, I agree with this. A guy that gooes to jail for 6oz. of weed that’s his own personal stash shouldn’t be sent there for 20 years while violent offenders walk free after 5. 4. It used to be socialized. We used to run prisons effectively until we switched to this asinine rehabilitative model. Prison should be both punishment AND rehabilitation, but we’ve gone so far the other direction that the inmates run the asylum. Whether this is caused by the privitization I don’t know, but we need to get real about crime and punishment. When criminals aren’t afraid to go to jail, something is wrong with the jail. ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prisoner-dilemma/520853/60 "2009-12-15T19:28:38Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > You don’t actually know anything about the criminal justice system, do you? > > As **fifty-six** has alluded to, most people who enter the prison system early find that it isn’t actually that bad of a place; full of sociopaths and violent people, certainly, but they’re more controlled than in the real world of the lower socio-economic classes, and with a priesthood of professional guardians (penal guards) to keep order and regulate behavior. Unless you end up being at the low end of the prison spectrum–child rapists and similar–it’s actually more like hanging out with your buddies in high school, trading bullshit stories about the big score that almost was, or the bitch who sold you out for another guy. Most of these people don’t want to be reformed in any significant way; they’re actually living the best life they know, and many commit crimes with the intention (whether conscious or otherwise) to return to prison, so serving a “full sentence” or making three strikes, or so forth isn’t really a penalty. For the genuinely fucked up, this is the only place they actually fit in. Try reading [Psychopathy: Antisocial, Criminal, and Violent Behavior](http://www.amazon.com/Psychopathy-Antisocial-Criminal-Violent-Behavior/dp/1572308648) to get an understanding of how most career criminals think. > > Reducing or eliminating penalties for “drug crime” would provide a modest reduction in the criminal population–certainly cannabis should be decriminalized as a dangerous drug–but many so-called recreational drugs like methamphetamines, rock cocaine, heroine, et cetera are clearly both psychologically and sociologically harmful and most people cannot consume them in recreational regimes. Blind decriminalization of drugs is not a blanket prescription for reducing crime, much of which is actually rooted in the lack of economic and educational opportunities of particular socio-ethnic groups, which is itself rooted in the culture of those groups in rejecting educational and economic opportunities when they are available. Reducing this problem to, “We should decriminalize drug use and distribution” is an approach beyond simplistic. > > Stranger Pardon, but in a way, you two are saying the same thing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prisoner-dilemma/520853.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-prisoner-dilemma/520853.md?page=4)