# The problem isn't Donald Trump -- it's the Donald Trump in all of us. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 26, 2017, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-isnt-donald-trump-its-the-donald-trump-in-all-of-us/805303 "2017-12-26T06:17:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2017, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-isnt-donald-trump-its-the-donald-trump-in-all-of-us/805303/1 "2017-12-26T06:17:29Z")
_**Men at some time are masters of their fates: The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, But in ourselves that we are underlings.**_ I hope everyone reads [this intelligent and eloquent essay](http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/12/19/the-united-states-of-america-is-decadent-and-depraved/). The whole article isn’t long, so don’t just read these brief excerpts: > [@James Traub](#): > > The United States of America Is Decadent and Depraved > The problem isn’t Donald Trump – it’s the Donald Trump in all of us. > > Perhaps in a democracy the distinctive feature of decadence is not debauchery but terminal self-absorption – the loss of the capacity for collective action, the belief in common purpose, even the acceptance of a common form of reasoning. We listen to necromancers who prophesy great things while they lead us into disaster. \*\*We sneer at the idea of a ‘public’ and hold our fellow citizens in contempt. We think anyone who doesn’t pursue self-interest is a fool… > \*\* > ‘Decadence,’ in short, describes a cultural, moral, and spiritual disorder – the Donald Trump in us. It is the right, of course, that first introduced the language of civilizational decay to American political discourse. A quarter of a century ago, Patrick Buchanan bellowed at the Republican National Convention that the two parties were fighting ‘a religious war for the soul of America.’ Former Speaker Newt Gingrich (R-Ga.) accused the Democrats of practicing ‘multicultural nihilistic hedonism,’ of despising the values of ordinary Americans, of corruption, and of illegitimacy. That all-accusing voice became the voice of the Republican Party. Today it is not the nihilistic hedonism of imperial Rome that threatens American civilization but the furies unleashed by Gingrich and his kin. > > … Trump functions as the impudent id of this culture of mass contempt. Of course he has legitimized the language of xenophobia and racial hatred, but he has also legitimized the language of selfishness… **Voters saw cruelty and naked self-aggrandizement as signs of steely determination.** > > … Half a century ago … democratic majorities even agreed to spend large sums not on themselves but on excluded minorities. The commitment sounds almost chivalric today. Do any of our leaders have the temerity even to suggest that a tax policy that might hurt one class – at least, one politically potent class – nevertheless benefits the nation? > > … I certainly didn’t vote for Ronald Reagan, but I cannot imagine him using tax policy to reward supporters and punish opponents. He would have thought that grossly unpatriotic… > > Here is something genuinely new about our era: **We lack not only a sense of shared citizenry or collective good, but even a shared body of fact or a collective mode of reasoning toward the truth.** A thing that we wish to be true is true; if we wish it not to be true, it isn’t. Global warming is a hoax. Barack Obama was born in Africa. Neutral predictions of the effects of tax cuts on the budget must be wrong, because the effects they foresee are bad ones… > > … And yet Trump is as much symptom as cause of our national disorder. The Washington Post recently reported that officials at the Center for Disease Control were ordered not to use words like ‘science-based,’ apparently now regarded as disablingly left-leaning. But further reporting in the New York Times appears to show that the order came not from White House flunkies but from officials worried that Congress would reject funding proposals marred by the offensive terms. One of our two national political parties – and its supporters – now regards ‘science’ as a fighting word. Where is our Robert Musil, our pitiless satirist and moralist, when we need him (or her)? > > … **What is new and distinctive, however, is the lack of apology or embarrassment, the sheer blitheness of the contempt for the public good** … > > The worship of the marketplace, and thus the elevation of selfishness to a public virtue, is a doctrine that we associate with the libertarian right. But it has coursed through the culture as a self-justifying ideology for rich people of all political persuasions – perhaps also for people who merely dream of becoming rich. > > [comparing the end of American greatness with the end of the British Empire] … The British have the gift of ironic realism. When the time came to exit the stage, they shuffled off with a slightly embarrassed shrug. That, of course, is not the American way. When the stage manager beckons us into the wings we look for someone to hit – each other, or immigrants or Muslims or any other kind of not-us. Finding the reality of our situation inadmissible, like the deluded courtiers of the Shah of Iran, we slide into a malignant fantasy… > > **Our political elite will continue to gratify our worst impulses so long as we continue to be governed by them.** The only way back is to reclaim the common ground – political, moral, and even cognitive – that Donald Trump has lit on fire. **Losing to China is hardly the worst thing that could happen to us. Losing ourselves is.** [my emphases] ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2017, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-isnt-donald-trump-its-the-donald-trump-in-all-of-us/805303/2 "2017-12-26T08:32:55Z")
I’m sorry but this is just another self-indulgent journalist trying to gain attention by contriving a cheap “insightful” bromide where none is needed. (I thought they had finally stopped doing that. . . .) Trump’s cronies are getting away with their looting because it’s a winner-take all executive system and a Republican congress. More importantly, Trump didn’t win because of the “Donald Trump in all us.” He won because he was able to dupe just enough of the right people in the right states. It’s rather insulting to the majority that he couldn’t dupe—that didn’t vote for him–to put forward this kind of trite notion. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2017, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-isnt-donald-trump-its-the-donald-trump-in-all-of-us/805303/3 "2017-12-26T09:10:11Z")
I agree that “_it’s the Donald Trump in **all** of us_” is insulting to _some_ of us — but that was the title of the essay OP links to. > [@guizot](#): > > I’m sorry but this is just another self-indulgent journalist trying to gain attention by contriving a cheap “insightful” bromide where none is needed. (I thought they had finally stopped doing that. . . .) Trump’s cronies are getting away with their looting because it’s a winner-take all executive system and a Republican congress. More importantly, Trump didn’t win because of the “Donald Trump in all us.” He won because he was able to dupe just enough of the right people in the right states. > > It’s rather insulting to the majority that he couldn’t dupe—that didn’t vote for him–to put forward this kind of trite notion. I find myself partly agreeing with you … but mostly not. Yes, the essay repeats many of the same lessons, self-indulgent or not, that we see a lot of lately, _ **but these are lessons we need to learn.** _ The moral bankruptcy of the United States is brought home to me reading threads at this “liberal” message board. In discussing the Great Tax Ripoff of 2017, for every post that laments this gigantic theft from the poor to the rich, there are multiple posts by upper middle-class Dopers (most of whom I’m sure voted for Hillary) that focus solely on how the tax cut will affect their own $150,000+ income. _Can anyone honestly compare today’s America to the America of JFK, LBJ, and Martin Luther King?_ The _Occupy Wall Street_ movement was a final gasping effort by the public before this plunge into total kleptocracy — yet it was met at SDMB with almost nothing but ridicule. To see examples of true “self-indulgence,” compare the high volume of posts about gun rights, Confederate statues and divisive social issues with the minimal acknowledgement, even here at “liberal” SDMB, that the country is being raped on a scale that would even stun a more ordinary banana republic. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2017, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-isnt-donald-trump-its-the-donald-trump-in-all-of-us/805303/4 "2017-12-26T11:38:55Z")
I agree that Trump is probably a symptom but not how the article states. Trump is likely a symptom of a failed political experiment - a political system no other country would touch, and with a Congress so corrupt enough of the population either sit on the their hands, or actively elect, a non-politician to me President. That the president is a high profile tv game show host should be the ultimate embarrassment to the elected \*representatives" or the system they created but somehow it isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2017, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-isnt-donald-trump-its-the-donald-trump-in-all-of-us/805303/5 "2017-12-26T11:41:28Z")
It looks like a classic “bothsides” argument to me. It’s unacceptable to admit the Republicans are worse than the general population, but it’s impossible to ignore just how bad they’ve gotten; so instead their defenders insist _everyone_ is just as bad as the Republicans are. Most people didn’t vote for Trump after all, and he’s anything but popular outside the Republican party. The article is basically describing the Republicans, but trying to pretend everyone is like that. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2017, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-isnt-donald-trump-its-the-donald-trump-in-all-of-us/805303/6 "2017-12-26T11:46:34Z")
Trump isn’t a Republican politician. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2017, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-isnt-donald-trump-its-the-donald-trump-in-all-of-us/805303/7 "2017-12-26T11:58:29Z")
_ **"Trump functions as the impudent id of this culture of mass contempt."** _ Trump is, of course, just the buffoonish mascot. _ **Not one single Republican Senator voted against the Trillion Dollar Heist.** _ The only Republican Representatives to vote against it cane from New York or New Jersey and weren’t concerned for the country or the working poor — they just wanted to protect the tax deductions of their upper middle-class constituents. Are the Republicans far more to blame than the Democrats? Obviously, as James Traub understands very well. Are some Democratic leaders, like Elizabeth Warren, trying to point the country in a saner direction? Yes, bless them. But the message isn’t getting through, in part because the “chattering class” is dominated by the attitudes James Traub calls attention to. What James Traub also understands, but “liberals” at SDMB do not, is that the way to educate alienated Trump voters is NOT to alienate them further, but to embrace them as fellow Americans and try to work together. We’re in a sinking ship. Now is not the time to sit on our hands petulantly, while complaining that others are not bailing the proper way. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2017, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-isnt-donald-trump-its-the-donald-trump-in-all-of-us/805303/8 "2017-12-26T13:50:44Z")
While I agree in principle that we should embrace them, it is hard to embrace racist misogynists who consistently vote against their own best interests (okay, that’s from my point of view) because they worry that “those others” will do even better. Take medicare for all, for example. How can anyone actually oppose it, leaving aside the insurance companies, private hospitals, and overpaid doctors of course. The idea that we are all in this boat together and we’d better make sure it floats seems to have disappeared. Instead it is “sauve qui peut”. Me too. Two years ago, I was seriously preparing to move back. Then I said to myself, “wait till after the election.” So I am still here in Montreal. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2017, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-isnt-donald-trump-its-the-donald-trump-in-all-of-us/805303/9 "2017-12-26T14:44:39Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > \*\*\*\ Now is not the time to sit on our hands petulantly, while complaining that others are not bailing the proper way. Bailing? They’re drilling holes in the boat and blaming others that it is sinking. All while supporting the 'Captain and his first mates that have life jackets ($$$). ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2017, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-isnt-donald-trump-its-the-donald-trump-in-all-of-us/805303/10 "2017-12-26T15:05:44Z")
I’m intelligent enough to know that neither Donald Trump nor myself are qualified to be the President of the United States and I voted accordingly. I therefore refuse to accept any blame for the Trump presidency. The fault for that lies on Donald Trump and the people who voted for Donald Trump. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2017, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-isnt-donald-trump-its-the-donald-trump-in-all-of-us/805303/11 "2017-12-26T15:10:55Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > The moral bankruptcy of the United States is brought home to me reading threads at this “liberal” message board. In discussing the Great Tax Ripoff of 2017, for every post that laments this gigantic theft from the poor to the rich, there are multiple posts by upper middle-class Dopers (most of whom I’m sure voted for Hillary) that focus solely on how the tax cut will affect their own $150,000+ income. IIRC, there used to be plenty of _What’s The Matter With Kansas_ posts hereabouts lamenting that folks _weren’t_ voting based on naked self-interest. Am I remembering that wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2017, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-isnt-donald-trump-its-the-donald-trump-in-all-of-us/805303/12 "2017-12-26T15:25:17Z")
Not totally amazing, but pretty good. I’m a teacher, so I am biased. I think one of the foundational problems in America is a lack of education, but even more worrying…a lack of valuing being educated. I don’t mean schooling, either. Just being intelligent and understanding why it is important to develop critical thinking, valuing facts over beliefs, etc. I think Trump is a symptom of that. He both is like that personally _and_ was able to recognize that trait in others and use it to become a demagogue. It’s kind of fascinating and historians in 100 years will enjoy looking back on this time with some pretty harsh criticism(and a lot of wonder/confusion). ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2017, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-isnt-donald-trump-its-the-donald-trump-in-all-of-us/805303/13 "2017-12-26T15:50:16Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > Bailing? They’re drilling holes in the boat and blaming others that it is sinking. > > All while supporting the 'Captain and his first mates that have life jackets ($$$). I believe his point was that those who could counter that trend both in opposition and within the Reps get tangled up in arguments about how to do so the right way and who should, and blaming each other for failing to (it’s your fault, Bernie - no, it’s yours, Hillary - “look, we just have to bear with him until we get this passed” - “dammit you’re raising the debt!” - etc) while the lunatics continue to drill the holes. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2017, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-isnt-donald-trump-its-the-donald-trump-in-all-of-us/805303/14 "2017-12-26T16:01:23Z")
All of us? No. Too many of us? Yes. The Trump enablers have their backs covered by the apathetic. ---
**Author:** ![Covfefe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ee7513/32.png) [@Covfefe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Covfefe)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2017, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-isnt-donald-trump-its-the-donald-trump-in-all-of-us/805303/15 "2017-12-26T16:39:39Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > The _Occupy Wall Street_ movement was a final gasping effort by the public before this plunge into total kleptocracy — yet it was met at SDMB with almost nothing but ridicule. The Occupy movement was almost as selfish as the Tea Party. And I’m talking of the ideas behind them, not how both movements were executed. The problem with both, again conceptually, was a failure to recognize and introspect the nature of the “average” American. The Tea Party lionized the hardworking taxpayer who wanted to have input and be represented. The Occupy movement rightly identified the effects and corporate greed, and then there was this 1%, 99% narrative. I just heard 1% of the population is wealthier now than any time in the last 50 years. So what is my problem? I could use another 99%, 1% illustration. For over 90% of working age adults, the average one has a large power disparity over the “1%”, including but not necessarily limited to those certain vulnerable minorities i.e. too disabled or mentally ill to function. Sure, if whatever goals of Occupy had been realized it may have benefited all, and I did see some lip service to this in the movement. Mostly I saw cluelessness of these hovering near the righteousness epicenter of their nation; I am also jaded from personal experience of seeing little discussed power disparities many seem desensitized to in action. There ought to have been more thought, who exactly are the 1% whose machinations are so problematic, and how many of the 99% suffer similar maladies. The whole reason I lasted on this message board more than a few posts is Donald Trump. 15 years of being an adult and I’ve known almost the entire time in many ways he isn’t so different from the average person. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2017, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-isnt-donald-trump-its-the-donald-trump-in-all-of-us/805303/16 "2017-12-26T16:48:04Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I’m intelligent enough to know that neither Donald Trump nor myself are qualified to be the President of the United States and I voted accordingly. > > I therefore refuse to accept any blame for the Trump presidency. The fault for that lies on Donald Trump and the people who voted for Donald Trump. I agree. I voted against the hairball too. I would sooner eat a black hole for lunch agree with anything he believes in. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2017, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-isnt-donald-trump-its-the-donald-trump-in-all-of-us/805303/17 "2017-12-26T17:24:38Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > I believe his point was that those who could counter that trend both in opposition and within the Reps get tangled up in arguments about how to do so the right way and who should, and blaming each other for failing to (it’s your fault, Bernie - no, it’s yours, Hillary - “look, we just have to bear with him until we get this passed” - “dammit you’re raising the debt!” - etc) while the lunatics continue to drill the holes. I think the big surprise (at least for me) was how many racist, white supremacist assholes we discovered in this country. Perhaps Trump new. That’s probably the people he knows best. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2017, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-isnt-donald-trump-its-the-donald-trump-in-all-of-us/805303/18 "2017-12-26T18:02:17Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > IIRC, there used to be plenty of _What’s The Matter With Kansas_ posts hereabouts lamenting that folks _weren’t_ voting based on naked self-interest. > > Am I remembering that wrong? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2017, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-isnt-donald-trump-its-the-donald-trump-in-all-of-us/805303/19 "2017-12-26T18:12:30Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > I agree. I voted against the hairball too. I would sooner eat a black hole for lunch agree with anything he believes in. I know what you and **Nemo** mean, and I feel the same way. And while we are not to blame, we all still must own the fact that the democracy we all benefit from carries the taint of this portion of our culture which has gained prominence. Therein lies part of the problem, the lack of concern of so many about what this says about us and our democracy. As pessimistic as I am about the future of our society I do see a glimmer of realization among people that we may be killing the goose that lays our golden eggs. Yet I still fear the lure of gold will dull such senses until it is too late. I sit here watching my retirement funds that I intend to depend on before too long growing, yet knowing that my gain is unearned and more deserved by others. The other day on TV noted talking head [Stephen Moore](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Moore_(writer)), speaking about the GOP tax reform admitted to all the inequities in it but stated that Americans didn’t care if their neighbors got a tax break as long as they received their own. As much as so many of us would say that does not reflect what we believe I think that may turn out to be the reality in practice. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2017, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-isnt-donald-trump-its-the-donald-trump-in-all-of-us/805303/20 "2017-12-26T22:44:23Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > What James Traub also understands, but “liberals” at SDMB do not, is that the way to educate alienated Trump voters is NOT to alienate them further, but to embrace them as fellow Americans and try to work together. The Democrats have been trying that for decades, and it’s only led to their near-destruction as a political party. They are _not_ “fellow Americans”, and they don’t look at us as fellow Americans either. They are enemies; fascists, not the “loyal opposition”. They want to hurt us and burn the country down. They want to persecute and oppress everyone else, for the crime of not being an identical copy of them. And I’m not willing to turn into a neo-Nazi just to try to make them happy (or for any other reason). [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-isnt-donald-trump-its-the-donald-trump-in-all-of-us/805303.md?page=2)