# The problem of evil, restated. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 15, 2012, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-of-evil-restated/644105 "2012-12-15T12:59:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-of-evil-restated/644105/21 "2012-12-15T18:26:34Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > Which brings up all sorts of other pesky questions about a reward/punishment afterlife scenario, like why are we punished for an **eternity** for actions taken during a finite and supposedly flawed/fallen (Christian-POV) life? Seems a bit…harsh. Some people argue that the common vision of hell as a place where devils stab you with pitchforks isn’t accurate. They argue that hell is actually pretty similar to earthly life. The main punishment in hell is that you’re denied the presence of God which people get to experience in heaven. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-of-evil-restated/644105/22 "2012-12-15T20:07:24Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Some people argue that the common vision of hell as a place where devils stab you with pitchforks isn’t accurate. They argue that hell is actually pretty similar to earthly life. The main punishment in hell is that you’re denied the presence of God which people get to experience in heaven. So heaven consists of what; constant worship and singing of praises to God? And hell is similar to earthly life and lacks the requirement of slavish worship? Why is heaven necessarily to be preferred? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-of-evil-restated/644105/23 "2012-12-15T21:53:21Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > But you were expecting God to step in, if He existed, and I haven’t heard a counter-argument against the position that it’s our responsibility not to let people go crazy and have access to deadly weapons, so just saying “Straw man” doesn’t make it so. Why should it be our responsibility, and not god’s? He is, afterall, both in a better position to help than any of us, and responsible for the design flaws that make it possible for humans to become unhinged to this degree. ---
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-of-evil-restated/644105/24 "2012-12-15T22:16:52Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Some people argue that the common vision of hell as a place where devils stab you with pitchforks isn’t accurate. They argue that hell is actually pretty similar to earthly life. The main punishment in hell is that you’re denied the presence of God which people get to experience in heaven. I argue that hell is a place where you eat only orange marmalade and are forced to listen to Davis Hasselhoff’s Greatest Hits. It’s just as plausible as any other concept of hell. The only difference is mine was made up 2 minutes ago and the others were made up 2 millennia ago. ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-of-evil-restated/644105/25 "2012-12-15T23:23:24Z")
> [@newcrasher](#): > > Your god is either impotent or malevolent. But really it’s much more boring than that. He doesn’t exist. He isn’t there. I’ll take your statements in order. No, He isn’t No, He isn’t It’s not. Yes, He does. Yes, He is. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-of-evil-restated/644105/26 "2012-12-15T23:44:07Z")
> [@Baker](#): > > I’ll take your statements in order. > > No, He isn’t > > No, He isn’t > > It’s not. > > Yes, He does. > > Yes, He is. Please show your work. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-of-evil-restated/644105/27 "2012-12-15T23:57:15Z")
> [@newcrasher](#): > > Give me a sling wielded by David or a .22 of the variety ladies used to slip into their stocking, or an obsidian tipped spear like the ones the Neandertal used…and I would have done my best to save those kids in CT. Honestly I give myself a 50/50 chance at success. It’s not like this kid was a pro or anything. > > Yet you, God, with all of the power in the universe, stood by idly while kindergartners were gunned down. You could have sent a gold ball sized meteorite to stay in his skull as he left his home. An old lady could have lost control of her car and run him down on the sidewalk. A good old- fashioned aneurism would have done the job. > > But no, you let him go. Couldn’t interfere with his free will, I guess. Apparently you love some free will. > > We cannot effectively prove you do not exist. But the existence of such evil, while you claim to be all powerful and all good, is a puzzle. > > However we consistently see you allowing unspeakable things to happen to the innocent. At every turn, your actions are the same as a god who just…isn’t there. > > You’re not there. So who am I really talking to here? I am talking to the religious, the righteous the holy. Those who follow this god and his book and try to influence the lies of others. > > This Sunday go to your church’s nursery and look at those sweet children. And know that if a crazed man comes in, your god is not going to protect them any more than he protcted the little one in Connecticut. He moves in strange ways, indeed. > > Your god is either impotent or malevolent. But really it’s much more boring than that. He doesn’t exist. He isn’t there. What level of evil would be tolerable? What level of evil would not make you think God doesn’t exist? 10 kids? 2 kids? 1 kid? only adults? only really bad people? Tell us please where you draw the line? No murders ever? No theft? NO disease? Never anything bad? ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-of-evil-restated/644105/28 "2012-12-16T00:45:02Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > What level of evil would be tolerable? What level of evil would not make you think God doesn’t exist? > 10 kids? 2 kids? 1 kid? only adults? only really bad people? > Tell us please where you draw the line? No murders ever? No theft? NO disease? Never anything bad? Well, sure. It would be nice to have a clear delineation between heaven and hell, wouldn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-of-evil-restated/644105/29 "2012-12-16T03:40:32Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > Please show your work. > > Thank you. Why? the person I was answering didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-of-evil-restated/644105/30 "2012-12-16T04:15:04Z")
> [@newcrasher](#): > > I argue that hell is a place where you eat only orange marmalade and are forced to listen to Davis Hasselhoff’s Greatest Hits. > > It’s just as plausible as any other concept of hell. The only difference is mine was made up 2 minutes ago and the others were made up 2 millennia ago. The difference between us is that while I’m an atheist, I’m willing to listen to other possibilities and acknowlege they may be internally consistent. Your argument seems to be that any cosmology that doesn’t get your personal seal of approval is thereby ruled impossible. You need to realize it’s possible the universe doesn’t care whether or not you personally approve of it. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-of-evil-restated/644105/31 "2012-12-16T04:19:10Z")
> [@Baker](#): > > Why? the person I was answering didn’t. Yes he did. In a very concrete way. My cite: CNN. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-of-evil-restated/644105/32 "2012-12-16T05:09:42Z")
Gang, I don’t think right after a shooting is the best time to make political proclamations, or religious ones. I’m betting a Fundie rant would be as repugnant to me as an Atheist one, right now. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-of-evil-restated/644105/33 "2012-12-16T16:18:11Z")
God is so freeking busy listening to high school coaches asking for help winning the game, and the general Tourette’s syndrome Christians who can’t utter a sentence without putting Jesus in it someplace, for him to have time to look after little things like children in CT. Just the overhead of listening to the Grace said by folks eating at Cracker Barrel alone is a full time job. ---
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-of-evil-restated/644105/34 "2012-12-16T16:23:23Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The difference between us is that while I’m an atheist, I’m willing to listen to other possibilities and acknowlege they may be internally consistent. > > Your argument seems to be that any cosmology that doesn’t get your personal seal of approval is thereby ruled impossible. You need to realize it’s possible the universe doesn’t care whether or not you personally approve of it. I’m willing to listen to other possibilities, too. I just expect there to be evidence that suggeste what they are saying is true. What are you suggesting that is internally consistent? You are mischaracterizing my position. I am willing to accept any cosmology even if I don’t like it, if it can be shown to be true. In fact, if I could spend eternity in bliss with god and all of my loved ones, that would be great. I like that concept. But me liking it isn’t enough to make it true. The universe not only does not care what I think, it most likely lacks the capacity to care. My liking or disliking an idea is not what makes it true. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-of-evil-restated/644105/35 "2012-12-16T19:11:27Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Some people argue that the common vision of hell as a place where devils stab you with pitchforks isn’t accurate. They argue that hell is actually pretty similar to earthly life. The main punishment in hell is that you’re denied the presence of God which people get to experience in heaven. I might argue that denial of The Presence is true of Sheol/Hades where the unredeemed dead lanquish until the Final Judgment- but that Gehenna/The Lake of Fire which the incorrigibly unrepentant is inescapable evelopment in The Presence. “For our God is a consuming Fire.” Letter to the Hebrews I can well see that for many, there can be no worse Hell than to be trapped inside God & raging to escape. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-of-evil-restated/644105/36 "2012-12-16T19:25:37Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > I might argue that denial of The Presence is true of Sheol/Hades where the unredeemed dead lanquish until the Final Judgment- but that Gehenna/The Lake of Fire which the incorrigibly unrepentant is inescapable evelopment in The Presence. > > “For our God is a consuming Fire.” Letter to the Hebrews > > I can well see that for many, there can be no worse Hell than to be trapped inside God & raging to escape. Damn, you sure can write some HellPorn, FriarTed. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-of-evil-restated/644105/37 "2012-12-16T20:27:39Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > Damn, you sure can write some HellPorn, FriarTed. - \ \ \\* ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-of-evil-restated/644105/38 "2012-12-16T20:59:32Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > - > > \ \ \\* That took me a couple seconds… well done! ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-of-evil-restated/644105/39 "2012-12-16T21:00:54Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > That took me a couple seconds… well done! Beat your previous record? ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-of-evil-restated/644105/40 "2012-12-17T02:27:54Z")
> [@newcrasher](#): > > …there is no reason to ascribe things, good or bad, to any deity. Then why did you feel the need to rage at a god you apparently (believe doesn’t exist)/(believe exists and therefore is responsible)? Which is it? Your entire rant is profoundly irrational. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-of-evil-restated/644105.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-of-evil-restated/644105.md?page=3)