# The problem of evil, restated. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 15, 2012, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-of-evil-restated/644105 "2012-12-15T12:59:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-of-evil-restated/644105/61 "2012-12-17T18:04:09Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > If you don’t believe God exists, how can you be angry at him for allowing people to die? Did anyone get angry at Superman for not stopping the shooting? Of course not, people understand Superman is a fictional character and can’t do anything in this world. But people get mad at God for not doing something at the same time they say they don’t believe God exists. If God doesn’t exist, you don’t get to be angry at him for not doing something. Poe’s Law. ---
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-of-evil-restated/644105/62 "2012-12-17T18:14:13Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > We’re failing to communicate again. I blame myself. > > I’m reading things like, “Your god did the same thing as every other god in history…nothing…because he belongs to a long line of deities that do not exist” and assuming he’s taking the absence of action as evidence of absence. And yet, somehow, a lot of people believe that absence of action is perfectly reasonable given at least one particular god’s fondness for faith over proof. > > I’m not certain I buy into it either, but I can understand why someone would. Isn’t it odd that the only gods left are the ones who prefer faith over just showing themselves? ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-of-evil-restated/644105/63 "2012-12-17T18:34:00Z")
> [@newcrasher](#): > > Isn’t it odd that the only gods left are the ones who prefer faith over just showing themselves? Maybe faith is more potent sustinance than terror and burnt offerings? Maybe the ones that show themselves expose weaknesses (to the ever ambitious humans) and get bumped off? I dunno, man. I’m not a worshipper myself, but I find it hard to blame someone for looking for solace in dreams when reality is at least as bereft of it. Ideally, in addition to prayer, the believers will also make a casserole for the bereaved and reach out to the weird, troubled kids in their communities before they spray bullets at blameless innocents–which is what we should all do. Cook and reach out, I mean. Probably not such a good idea to spray bullets. Whatever. IMHO there are plenty of reasons to pit believers, but the “where is your god now” spiel isn’t one of 'em. But maybe doing so is easier than pitting the source of evil itself. Evil’s funny because the closer you look for its source the more elusive it is, and that’s damned frustrating. I appologize for interrupting–I should get back to my wall-sitting now. ---
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-of-evil-restated/644105/64 "2012-12-17T18:40:57Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > Maybe faith is more potent sustinance than terror and burnt offerings? Maybe the ones that show themselves expose weaknesses (to the ever ambitious humans) and get bumped off? I dunno, man. > > I’m not a worshipper myself, but I find it hard to blame someone for looking for solace in dreams when reality is at least as bereft of it. Ideally, in addition to prayer, the believers will also make a casserole for the bereaved and reach out to the weird, troubled kids in their communities before they spray bullets at blameless innocents–which is what we should all do. Cook and reach out, I mean. Probably not such a good idea to spray bullets. > > Whatever. IMHO there are plenty of reasons to pit believers, but the “where is your god now” spiel isn’t one of 'em. But maybe doing so is easier than pitting the source of evil itself. Evil’s funny because the closer you look for its source the more elusive it is, and that’s damned frustrating. > > I appologize for interrupting–I should get back to my wall-sitting now. Cool. Here is a smattering of smilies for your amusement. 🙂 🆒 😉 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-of-evil-restated/644105/65 "2012-12-17T19:14:27Z")
Whee! ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-of-evil-restated/644105/66 "2012-12-17T19:56:15Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > Maybe faith is more potent sustinance than terror and burnt offerings? Maybe the ones that show themselves expose weaknesses (to the ever ambitious humans) and get bumped off? I dunno, man. > > I’m not a worshipper myself, but I find it hard to blame someone for looking for solace in dreams when reality is at least as bereft of it. Ideally, in addition to prayer, the believers will also make a casserole for the bereaved and reach out to the weird, troubled kids in their communities before they spray bullets at blameless innocents–which is what we should all do. Cook and reach out, I mean. Probably not such a good idea to spray bullets. You mentioned that God care more about faith than proof. Got a Biblical cite for this? Or is it something you heard from believers who are trying to explain why God hasn’t himself for a while. After all, in the Exodus story God was pretty prevalent, and Jesus did his tricks. In the movie, George Burns showed up in court, even. In real life, not so much. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-of-evil-restated/644105/67 "2012-12-17T20:10:38Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > You mentioned that God care more about faith than proof. Got a Biblical cite for this? Or is it something you heard from believers who are trying to explain why God hasn’t himself for a while. After all, in the Exodus story God was pretty prevalent, and Jesus did his tricks. > In the movie, George Burns showed up in court, even. In real life, not so much. Good point. Is there a place in the Bible where God basically says,“I know that I’ve directly and constantly intervened in your affairs since the beginning of time, but that all stops now! From this point onward y’all are just going to go on faith that I exist, and the only way I’m goint to speak to you is second-hand through your fellow man, so _do_ try to pick the right ones to listen to, o.k.? Byeee!” ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-of-evil-restated/644105/68 "2012-12-17T23:45:42Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Good point. > Is there a place in the Bible where God basically says,“I know that I’ve directly and constantly intervened in your affairs since the beginning of time, but that all stops now! From this point onward y’all are just going to go on faith that I exist, and the only way I’m goint to speak to you is second-hand through your fellow man, so _do_ try to pick the right ones to listen to, o.k.? Byeee!” You have to figure the Bible is like a highlights reel. It may seem like God was constantly dropping in but the divine interventions it recounted were spread out over a couple of thousand years. ---
**Author:** ![Faruiza](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecd19e/32.png) [@Faruiza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Faruiza)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-of-evil-restated/644105/69 "2012-12-18T02:16:08Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > You have to figure the Bible is like a highlights reel. It may seem like God was constantly dropping in but the divine interventions it recounted were spread out over a couple of thousand years. And that’s a fuckin’ scary thought considering that if that pattern holds up, we’re probably due, and it’s never ever a good thing when DAD finally shows up. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-of-evil-restated/644105/70 "2012-12-18T07:03:06Z")
> [@Cheshire\_Human](#): > > Then why did you feel the need to rage at a god you apparently (believe doesn’t exist)/(believe exists and therefore is responsible)? Which is it? Your entire rant is profoundly irrational. I believe the OP is a recent “convert” to atheism. (I don’t know what other word to use). Converts to any belief or movement tend to be a wee over zealous when they start out. ---
**Author:** ![JCorre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/3da27b/32.png) [@JCorre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JCorre)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-of-evil-restated/644105/71 "2012-12-18T07:11:45Z")
I think its the “simple” matter that the concept of an all-powerful AND benevolent god is a contradiction given the events of history. If there was some reason he’d allow these evil events to happen then there would be a way to achieve the same ends without those events since he’s all-powerful. Am I wrong? ---
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-of-evil-restated/644105/72 "2012-12-18T11:23:50Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > I believe the OP is a recent “convert” to atheism. (I don’t know what other word to use). Converts to any belief or movement tend to be a wee over zealous when they start out. Sorry I didn’t show the restraint that The Pit is otherwise known for. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-of-evil-restated/644105/73 "2012-12-18T11:38:53Z")
Does anyone have any fucking idea how much bad shit happens in the world? I seriously think the mourning reaction I’ve seen over this one incident would barely be justified if a large city got nuked and a million people died. Holy fuck, 20 dead kids is proof that god doesn’t care? Not the fucking millions of things that have happened in your lifetime that are as bad or worse? Am I the only fucking person in the world that doesn’t think this is the biggest event of our fucking lifetimes? 50 children have probably been brutally gang raped to death in the days we’ve been freaking out over this shit. Do you all really not comprehend that horrible shit is happening constantly? Do you think that only things that are immediately in front of your face actually exist? ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-of-evil-restated/644105/74 "2012-12-18T13:18:14Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > I believe the OP is a recent “convert” to atheism. (I don’t know what other word to use). Converts to any belief or movement tend to be a wee over zealous when they start out. Taking a break from all your selfless charitable works to craft this driveby, Guin? ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-of-evil-restated/644105/75 "2012-12-18T13:45:30Z")
> [@JCorre](#): > > I think its the “simple” matter that the concept of an all-powerful AND benevolent god is a contradiction given the events of history. > > If there was some reason he’d allow these evil events to happen then there would be a way to achieve the same ends without those events since he’s all-powerful. > > Am I wrong? How much evil would be acceptable so as to not disprove the existence of God? Also, I completely agree with **Senor Beef** ; if evil was going to make me doubt God, it’d be the constant and much greater one you can see every day, not the statisitcal blip of 30 gunned to death in a country where that’s the daily average. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-of-evil-restated/644105/76 "2012-12-18T13:50:06Z")
I’m not sure that reducing the recent kiddie massacre to “one of God’s lesser evils” is doing your side any favors. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-of-evil-restated/644105/77 "2012-12-18T13:52:06Z")
> [@](#): > > Many have puzzled themselves about the origin of evil. I am content to observe that there is evil, and that there is a way to escape from it, and with this I begin and end. ~ John Newton > [@](#): > > “Traces of nobility, gentleness and courage persist in all people, do what we will to stamp out the trend. So, too, do those characteristics which are ugly. It is just unfortunate that in the clumsy hands of a cartoonist all traits become ridiculous, leading to a certain amount of self-conscious expostulation and the desire to join battle. > There is no need to sally forth, for it remains true that those things which make us human are, curiously enough, always close at hand. Resolve then, that on this very ground, with small flags waving and tinny blast on tiny trumpets, we shall meet the enemy, and not only may he be ours, he may be us. Forward!”—Walt Kelly, June 1953 Every generation fights this battle. But in Alexader the Great’s era, one in four died by violence. In this era, even with War and Holocaust, one in one hundred do. Read this book- > **[The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined: Pinker, Steven:...](https://www.amazon.com/Better-Angels-Our-Nature-Violence/dp/0143122010)** > > The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined \[Pinker, Steven\] on Amazon.com. \*FREE\* shipping on qualifying offers. The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-of-evil-restated/644105/78 "2012-12-18T14:16:55Z")
> [@Faruiza](#): > > And that’s a fuckin’ scary thought considering that if that pattern holds up, we’re probably due, and it’s never ever a good thing when DAD finally shows up. Joseph Smith took care of that a hundred and and some years ago with his gold plates and magic translation rocks. God’s done his scheduled intervention for the next few hundred years. We’re fine… _for now!_ > [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > How much evil would be acceptable so as to not disprove the existence of God? It doesn’t disprove the existence of God. It merely disproves a _specific type_ of God. Others might still exist. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-of-evil-restated/644105/79 "2012-12-18T14:20:26Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-of-evil-restated/644105/80 "2012-12-18T14:46:19Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > I’m not sure that reducing the recent kiddie massacre to “one of God’s lesser evils” is doing your side any favors. In a way it does. It means that if evil is the problem, this specific action should be insignificant towards your deciding that it’s impossible to reconcile with your beliefs. > [@Cheshire\_Human](#): > > It doesn’t disprove the existence of God. It merely disproves a _specific type_ of God. Others might still exist. I’ll restate. How much evil would not disprove an omnipotent, benevolent god. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-of-evil-restated/644105.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-of-evil-restated/644105.md?page=5)