# The Problem with Planes **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 21, 2011, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244 "2011-06-21T03:37:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/181 "2011-06-21T23:32:37Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Except in this case, the accommodation is perfectly reasonable and suitable for your condition and a range of others as well. Says YOU, who has NO personal experience with it. How do YOU define “perfectly reasonable”? ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/182 "2011-06-21T23:35:34Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Of course you completely missed the point. I’m not talking about whether they use the handicapped stall. I’m saying that a bathroom that has one regular stall and one handicapped stall could instead have had three regular stalls. So any time there is a lineup for that bathroom, people in line are waiting longer than they would have to had no handicapped facilities been made available at all. That occurs even if a handicapped person _never_ uses that bathroom. > > In addition, if a building rents for $20 sq ft, and a handicapped stall uses up an extra six square feet of floor space, then the person renting that building is paying $120 to provide handicapped access for you. You might think about some of the things people already doing for you, rather than bitch about the things you want. > > In the case of the airline, the cost of that accommodation would run into the millions of dollars. Nothing is cheap in aviation. Your special chair would impose a cost on everyone else who’s flying. You should be grateful for the access you do have, and if that conflicts with your desire to fly to bodybuilding tournaments after sucking down a whole bunch of fluids, well, tough luck. Either lower your personal sense of dignity to match reality, or stay home. There’s lots of things I’d like to do that I can’t do for practical reasons, and I don’t demand that others provide them for me. > > On edit: What **Absolute** said. IT’s a simple system of fairness. If all other stalls are occupied, by all means, USE THE HANDICAP STALL. THAT would be a use of NECESSITY. Because you had NO OTHER OPTION. Just like someone in a wheelchair, or other access-compromising disability has no other option. BUT, if non-accessible toilets ARE available, that should be your (as an able-bodied individual) FIRST choice. I don’t expect ppl to line up outside non-accessible stalls when the handicap stall is available. That is ridiculous. But I DO expect ppl to reserve use of those stalls for times when other stall aren’t available. I cannot fathom how ANYONE can, in all fairness and honesty, argue with this premise. (a side note: unless it’s a tiny establishment, no places have ONE reg toilet and ONE accessible toilet, its always AT LEAST 2 or 3) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/183 "2011-06-21T23:38:12Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > How many times do I need to repeat myself??? If repetition isn’t working, maybe you need a better approach. Something that will convince us to support further accommodations. For me personally on the airline issue, I view you as the guy who always insists on a window seat but then complains that this makes going to the bathroom “a real hassle, man, especially after I down my traditional pre-flight 64-ounce Turbo Chug at the 7-11 on the way to the airport, man…” ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/184 "2011-06-21T23:43:05Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > If repetition isn’t working, maybe you need a better approach. Something that will convince us to support further accommodations. For me personally on the airline issue, I view you as the guy who always insists on a window seat but then complains that this makes going to the bathroom “a real hassle, man, especially after I down my traditional pre-flight 64-ounce Turbo Chug at the 7-11 on the way to the airport, man…” Well when you (the general “you”) take things from my writings that simply ARE NOT THERE, how can I EVER convince you of my side of things? It’s a lost cause. So you see my complaint here as “trivial”? Hmm. Let me pose a question to the board at large here…Has anyone ever witnessed the “aisle chair” procedure in action on a plane? ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/185 "2011-06-21T23:49:16Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > IT’s a simple system of fairness. If all other stalls are occupied, by all means, USE THE HANDICAP STALL. THAT would be a use of NECESSITY. Because you had NO OTHER OPTION. Just like someone in a wheelchair, or other access-compromising disability has no other option. BUT, if non-accessible toilets ARE available, that should be your (as an able-bodied individual) FIRST choice. I don’t expect ppl to line up outside non-accessible stalls when the handicap stall is available. That is ridiculous. But I DO expect ppl to reserve use of those stalls for times when other stall aren’t available. I cannot fathom how ANYONE can, in all fairness and honesty, argue with this premise. (a side note: unless it’s a tiny establishment, no places have ONE reg toilet and ONE accessible toilet, its always AT LEAST 2 or 3) You are not the only person who benefits from the availability of the handicapped stall, yet you demand that everyone for whom it is not an absolute necessity avoid taking advantage of it for the minuscule chance that you might need to use it and do not want to have to wait. I am finished with this thread, because it’s clear you’re never going to pull your head out of your ass and realize why this is not fair to everyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/186 "2011-06-21T23:54:16Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > You are not the only person who benefits from the availability of the handicapped stall, yet you demand that everyone else avoid taking advantage of it for the minuscule chance that you might need to use it and do not want to have to wait. > > I am finished with this thread, because it’s clear you’re never going to pull your head out of your ass and realize why this is not fair to everyone else. Tell me! PLEASE! Tell me how only using the handicap stall if it’s the only one available to you (the able-bodied) is unfair to you!!! It’s the only one available to those who have access-compromising disabilities. You have options available to you. Use them. If not available, you are lucky, you have a handicap stall ALSO at your disposal to meet your needs. I ONLY ask that such use is reserved to times when NO OTHER TOILET IS AVAILABLE. IM NOT asking ANYONE to wait for a toilet when one is available, IM DEFINITELY not asking for PERSONAL EXCLUSIVE PRIORITY to the stalls. I dont understand why I am giving that impression. It is simple, UNARGUABLE decency and fairness. Based on this premise, I eagerly await to see an argument from someone on how my requests are IN ANYWAY unfair. ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/187 "2011-06-22T00:00:17Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > Tell me! PLEASE! Tell me how only using the handicap stall if it’s the only one available to you (the able-bodied) is unfair to you!!! It’s the only one available to those who have access-compromising disabilities. You have options available to you. Use them. If not available, you are lucky, you have a handicap stall ALSO at your disposal to meet your needs. I ONLY ask that such use is reserved to times when NO OTHER TOILET IS AVAILABLE. IM NOT asking ANYONE to wait for a toilet when one is available, I DEFINITELY not asking for PERSONAL EXCLUSIVE PRIORITY to the stalls. I dont understand why I am giving that impression. It is simple, UNARGUABLE decency and fairness. Based on this premise, I eagerly await to see an argument from someone on how my requests are IN ANYWAY unfair. Argh. I really need to get back to work. See my previous post, a page ago or so. Many people find the handicapped stall _more comfortable_, _less awkward_, _more convenient_ than the non-handicapped stall, even though it is still possible for them to use the non-handicapped stalls. For instance, when I broke my ankle, the normal stalls were a pain because I did not have the room to position my leg at a comfortable angle, although if necessary I could use them. There are literally millions of people for whom access to the normal stalls is possible but not preferable, for all kinds of reasons including age, injuries, obesity, bulky clothing, whatever. People who absolutely _need_ the handicapped stalls, such as yourself, represent a very small fraction of the population - as I estimated above, 0.1%. By demanding that people who would otherwise benefit from them willingly avoid using the handicapped stalls in deference to you, you are asking a lot of people to needlessly inconvenience themselves 99.9% of the time so that they do not inconvenience you 0.1% of the time (from their perspective). Do you not see how that is selfish? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/188 "2011-06-22T00:03:15Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > Well when you (the general “you”) take things from my writings that simply ARE NOT THERE, how can I EVER convince you of my side of things? Well, maybe it’s my fault - I kinda stopped reading after that “bodybuilders need to drink gallons” bit, since this struck me as a “duh” moment. I can certainly understand wanting reasonable accommodation, but your preflight drinking habits are deliberately and knowingly aggravating the problem. > [@](#): > > So you see my complaint here as “trivial”? No, just self-indulgent and seeking public indulgence. > [@](#): > > Let me pose a question to the board at large here…Has anyone ever witnessed the “aisle chair” procedure in action on a plane? I’m prepared to assume it’s a truly uncomfortable and humiliating experience. All the more reason to minimize the odds of needing it by: [ul][li]Reserve your seat early, get one right next to the restroom.[/li][li]Don’t chug before the flight. If you must chug before the event, get to the event city a few days early and chug _after_ the flight.[/li][li]Don’t fly at all - take the train.[/ul][/li] I’m sure other suggestions have been floated in this thread. Take them, don’t take them… whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/189 "2011-06-22T00:03:50Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > That’s the issue? The fact that for maybe a handful of times in a year, you’re in a position in which your chair has to be pushed by someone else a few feet? Really? > > I thought that at the very least the problem was going to be the fact that you had to be lifted in and out by someone else. > > That guy at the courthouse in Tennessee had to be either bodily carried up to the courtroom by a bailiff or crawl up the stairs on his belly, pulling himself up step-by-step using only his arms. > > And this is about someone pushing the chair down the aisle behind you? > > Blimey. Um yeah and if Im not mistaken that guy SUED. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/190 "2011-06-22T00:07:13Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > IT’s a simple system of fairness. If all other stalls are occupied, by all means, USE THE HANDICAP STALL. THAT would be a use of NECESSITY. Because you had NO OTHER OPTION. Just like someone in a wheelchair, or other access-compromising disability has no other option. BUT, if non-accessible toilets ARE available, that should be your (as an able-bodied individual) FIRST choice. I don’t expect ppl to line up outside non-accessible stalls when the handicap stall is available. That is ridiculous. But I DO expect ppl to reserve use of those stalls for times when other stall aren’t available. I cannot fathom how ANYONE can, in all fairness and honesty, argue with this premise. (a side note: unless it’s a tiny establishment, no places have ONE reg toilet and ONE accessible toilet, its always AT LEAST 2 or 3) Again, you completely missed what I said. I don’t know how to make it more clear, so I won’t bother trying again. As for places that only have one regular and one handicapped stall - my workplace bathroom is in exactly that configuration. I think it’s actually quite common in the workplace. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/191 "2011-06-22T00:08:55Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > ‘Final say’? We haven’t had the initial ‘say’ yet. The airlines are not going to buy a piece of equipment that doesn’t exist. If such a chair _did_ exist, it would be certified for airline use. _IF_ the chair existed and the airlines as a whole didn’t adopt them, _then_ you might have a case. Then you could choose to fly with airlines that have them. > > But until these chairs exist and are available to airlines, you’re barking up the wrong tree. But the manufacterers are not going to make something “exist” that the airlines didn’t express a specific interest in. The manufacterers arent going to build them at MY request, no I’d have to convince the airlines to make such requests. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/192 "2011-06-22T00:10:50Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Again, you completely missed what I said. I don’t know how to make it more clear, so I won’t bother trying again. > > As for places that only have one regular and one handicapped stall - my workplace bathroom is in exactly that configuration. I think it’s actually quite common in the workplace. Well then we obviously are missing EACH OTHER’S POINT. Because I offer up my premise clearly and simply to be picked apart and you pass. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/193 "2011-06-22T00:11:09Z")
Overall winner of the 2007 Caveman Classic huh. You look pretty handicapable in the picture, Jamie. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/194 "2011-06-22T00:13:40Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Overall winner of the 2007 Caveman Classic huh. > > You look pretty handicapable in the picture, Jamie. :o Oh man, wasn’t expecting that! Thank you. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/195 "2011-06-22T00:17:20Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > But the manufacterers are not going to make something “exist” that the airlines didn’t express a specific interest in. The manufacterers arent going to build them at MY request, no I’d have to convince the airlines to make such requests. You’re not going to get it by whining. Also, have you attempted to contact any aisle chair manufacturers? If not, then you don’t know what they will or won’t do. It’s possible that no one had ever considered making such a chair, possibly for reasons others have stated. Or maybe they just never thought of it, and a self-propelled chair might be their next big money-maker and an edge on the competition. I’ll type this slowly so that you can understand it: The airlines are not to blame here. You need to take it up with the chair makers. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/196 "2011-06-22T00:19:24Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > You’re not going to get it by whining. > > Also, have you attempted to contact any aisle chair manufacturers? If not, then you don’t know what they will or won’t do. It’s possible that no one had ever considered making such a chair, possibly for reasons others have stated. Or maybe they just never thought of it, and a self-propelled chair might be their next big money-maker and an edge on the competition. > > I’ll type this slowly so that you can understand it: > > The airlines are not to blame here. You need to take it up with the chair makers. Well I’ll type equally as slow: we disagree. But BOTH do need to in concert with any new changes. I’ll give you that. ---
**Author:** ![Canadjun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@Canadjun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Canadjun)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/197 "2011-06-22T01:07:27Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > Well when you (the general “you”) take things from my writings that simply ARE NOT THERE, how can I EVER convince you of my side of things? It’s a lost cause. So you see my complaint here as “trivial”? Hmm. Let me pose a question to the board at large here…Has anyone ever witnessed the “aisle chair” procedure in action on a plane? **YES** , from the perspective of someone actually in one of them. Admittedly I haven’t been taken to the washroom in one (note the other options that many people have mentioned), but I have certainly been hauled up and down aisles a great many times in one to get on and off aircraft. I’ve been hauled up and down steps in one quite a few times (when for some reason or another the plane was parked on the tarmac and passengers had to use stairs). I was left in one for half an hour or so at a gate at Shannon airport when there was a crew change (necessitating making all the passengers get off). What is the big deal?? I might agree that your problem is more than trivial, but given all the options that have already been suggested, your problem certainly is **minor**. You have other options (already discussed) if you can’t stand the “indignity” of an aisle chair. You are asking that people accommodate your **preferences** , not your **needs**. PS In case it matters (it shouldn’t) I usually get put on first and taken off last, but it is not always that way - I have been put on last a few times so everyone got to watch. Woop-de-doo. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/198 "2011-06-22T01:13:42Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > Well when you (the general “you”) take things from my writings that simply ARE NOT THERE, how can I EVER convince you of my side of things? It’s a lost cause. So you see my complaint here as “trivial”? Hmm. Let me pose a question to the board at large here…Has anyone ever witnessed the “aisle chair” procedure in action on a plane? Yes. It doesn’t look pleasant. I do not recall the strapping (the person was behind me, the bathroom in front of the divider), but I was on a flight where this was used. The patient was truly invalid and is obviously more in need of being secured than you are (which is none). But I fly a lot - I have no doubt that I’ve been on 100 airplane flights, and this chair isn’t used often. I will say that airplane aisles are a pain to navigate for _everybody_. However, I do agree with you in your basic complaint - if you don’t need to be strapped in, then they shouldn’t strap you in at your request. I have also thought that some airline, somewhere, would be smart enough to pre-board not only people who need assistance, but also _those people who sit in the same aisle_. I remember one flight where a rather large man was in a wheelchair, escorted on the airplane for pre-boarding, then couldn’t move to allow his seatmates in. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/199 "2011-06-22T01:18:43Z")
So… Am I the only one who thinks this thread is ridiculous? The OP’s ire may have started off a bit unfocused and perhaps misguided, but it seems like his complaint essentially boils down to “Those goddamned aisle chairs suck, and I’d like for there to be a simpler way for me to piss on an airplane without all of the shenanigans.” ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/200 "2011-06-22T01:31:51Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > …but it seems like his complaint essentially boils down to “Those goddamned aisle chairs suck, and I’d like for there to be a simpler way for me to piss on an airplane without all of the shenanigans.” Well, he seems to be arguing that the world owes him another way to piss, otherwise the world is treating him like less than a human being. I think that’s the part that most people object to. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244.md?page=11)