# The Problem with Planes **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 21, 2011, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244 "2011-06-21T03:37:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/201 "2011-06-22T01:42:54Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Well, he seems to be arguing that the world owes him another way to piss, otherwise the world is treating him like less than a human being. I think that’s the part that most people object to. Well, the airlines could keep a sharpened piece of copper tubing handy and just tap him like a maple tree, if that’ll help. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/202 "2011-06-22T01:43:04Z")
I didn’t quite get that impression, but I do get frustration and feeling like the aisle chair process is humiliating and degrading. Obviously other people’s mileage varies, and not all disabled people find this to be the greatest indignity in the world, but it’s an understandable lament. His posts are characterized by emotional fits (the EXCESSIVE CAPS and punctuation signal exasperation to me) and he tends to express generalized hostility toward the “they” who haven’t been able to come up with a more accommodating way for him to relieve himself, but I don’t see an honest demand that airlines remove seats and hire a squadron of engineers to create a seat just so he can piss more conveniently. ---
**Author:** ![gravitycrash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@gravitycrash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gravitycrash)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/203 "2011-06-22T01:46:30Z")
I’m sorry that you have a disability but it seems to me that governments be it local, state and federal have been bending over backwards to accommodate the handicapped, and yes sometimes to the point of inconveniencing everyone else. Because of the thread in the BBQ pit, when I went to Lowes to pick up some lumber I counted the handicapped spaces in front of the store. There were 16 handicapped parking spaces with one being used at 10:00 AM. I can maybe see that many for a Walmart but a home improvement store where you kinda need to be able to do physical stuff with most of the things contained in that store? Ridiculous. You just can’t expect the airlines to make allowances for everybody with a physical condition. This is from someone who loathes the airline industry, but come on, try to be reasonable ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/204 "2011-06-22T01:46:39Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > Um yeah and if Im not mistaken that guy SUED. Yeah, because his complaint, unlike yours, was actually compelling. And, by the way, he still lost. > [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > Says YOU, who has NO personal experience with it. How do YOU define “perfectly reasonable”? Perfectly reasonable doesn’t get judged only from your point of view. Look back through this thread, especially Sam Stone’s. It’s simply not worth society’s time and expense to spare you nothing more than the indignity of someone having to propel your chair for you for some very minor periods of time that make up very little of your life. > [@MeanOldLady](#): > > So… Am I the only one who thinks this thread is ridiculous? The OP’s ire may have started off a bit unfocused and perhaps misguided, but it seems like his complaint essentially boils down to “Those goddamned aisle chairs suck, and I’d like for there to be a simpler way for me to piss on an airplane without all of the shenanigans.” It’s even worse than that. His only complaint seems to be that the aisle chairs aren’t automated or self propelled. He doesn’t like being pushed a few feet. Given that a lot of people using wheelchairs have to spend some amount of time in their lives being pushed, I really can’t work up any sympathy here. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/205 "2011-06-22T01:49:26Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > Tell me! PLEASE! Tell me how only using the handicap stall if it’s the only one available to you (the able-bodied) is unfair to you!!! It’s the only one available to those who have access-compromising disabilities. You have options available to you. Use them. If not available, you are lucky, you have a handicap stall ALSO at your disposal to meet your needs. I ONLY ask that such use is reserved to times when NO OTHER TOILET IS AVAILABLE. IM NOT asking ANYONE to wait for a toilet when one is available, IM DEFINITELY not asking for PERSONAL EXCLUSIVE PRIORITY to the stalls. I dont understand why I am giving that impression. It is simple, UNARGUABLE decency and fairness. Based on this premise, I eagerly await to see an argument from someone on how my requests are IN ANYWAY unfair. For all those who so vehemently disagree with my P.O.V. on this issue, here is your chance; this is my case laid out plainly and clearly. Please present any argument against the case here, I eagerly await a logical, fair, coherent cross-argument. (and I apologize for the caps, it’s only because I’ve felt the need to stress certain words or phrases that seem to be escaping ppl’s eyes. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/206 "2011-06-22T01:53:47Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Yeah, because his complaint, unlike yours, was actually compelling. And, by the way, he still lost. > > Perfectly reasonable doesn’t get judged only from your point of view. Look back through this thread, especially Sam Stone’s. It’s simply not worth society’s time and expense to spare you nothing more than the indignity of someone having to propel your chair for you for some very minor periods of time that make up very little of your life. > > It’s even worse than that. His only complaint seems to be that the aisle chairs aren’t automated or self propelled. He doesn’t like being pushed a few feet. Given that a lot of people using wheelchairs have to spend some amount of time in their lives being pushed, I really can’t work up any sympathy here. For the umpteenth time, it not just the lack of independent propulsion. It is the entire experience. I don’t know why I’m even writing this. No one will read it. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/207 "2011-06-22T01:54:53Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > It’s even worse than that. His only complaint seems to be that the aisle chairs aren’t automated or self propelled. He doesn’t like being pushed a few feet. Given that a lot of people using wheelchairs have to spend some amount of time in their lives being pushed, I really can’t work up any sympathy here. Fair enough. I’d find it frustrating that someone has to place me in a chair and wheel me to the bathroom too, but I can see how some would have the impression that he’s being whiny. Still, the responses in this thread seem to paint the impression that he’s being completely over-the-top, having a “snit” like a small child, demanding that airlines re-write their seating charts and spending habits just so that he can wheel a motorized cart down the aisle and piss in comfort, which I don’t see to be the case. Anywho, carry on. ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/208 "2011-06-22T01:58:02Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > For all those who so vehemently disagree with my P.O.V. on this issue, here is your chance; this is my case laid out plainly and clearly. Please present any argument against the case here, I eagerly await a logical, fair, coherent cross-argument. (and I apologize for the caps, it’s only because I’ve felt the need to stress certain words or phrases that seem to be escaping ppl’s eyes. I have responded to your post. My response largely duplicates the content of a previous post of mine. You’ve been ignoring or have overlooked both of them. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13942307&postcount=187](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13942307&postcount=187) ---
**Author:** ![Canadjun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@Canadjun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Canadjun)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/209 "2011-06-22T01:58:07Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > For all those who so vehemently disagree with my P.O.V. on this issue, here is your chance; this is my case laid out plainly and clearly. Please present any argument against the case here, I eagerly await a logical, fair, coherent cross-argument. (and I apologize for the caps, it’s only because I’ve felt the need to stress certain words or phrases that seem to be escaping ppl’s eyes. Have you figured out what **Sam Stone** was saying in messages 171 and 178? Your answers don’t indicate that. In any case, I thought this discussion was about aircraft? ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/210 "2011-06-22T01:59:30Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > Fair enough. I’d find it frustrating that someone has to place me in a chair and wheel me to the bathroom too, but I can see how some would have the impression that he’s being whiny. Still, the responses in this thread seem to paint the impression that he’s being completely over-the-top, having a “snit” like a small child, demanding that airlines re-write their seating charts and spending habits just so that he can wheel a motorized cart down the aisle and piss in comfort, which I don’t see to be the case. > > Anywho, carry on. No, it’s not “fair enough”. You were correct in your original assesment of the situation. It’s the whole experience I find appalling. From being loaded and over-strapped like a piece of over=sized luggage, to being pushed back and forth in what is essentially a garage stool; simply in order to utilize the facilities. Part of my repulsion at this may in fact be due to my age and functionality in the world, but that is part of my point. Those aisle chair systems may be acceptable (and appropriate) to the 90yr old woman with crippling rheumatoid arthritis and brittle bones but disability is not “one size fits all”. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/211 "2011-06-22T02:02:03Z")
> [@Canadjun](#): > > Have you figured out what **Sam Stone** was saying in messages 171 and 178? Your answers don’t indicate that. In any case, I thought this discussion was about aircraft? Yes I understand his point but that doesn’t change the bottom line point I am making in the “case” for accessible stalls. And the stall-discussion got brought in from someone else, I dont’ remember who. But also, his answers don’t indicate that he has figured out what I am saying either. He has simply refused to address it directly, as I asked him to. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/212 "2011-06-22T02:03:41Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > Those aisle chair systems may be acceptable (and appropriate) to the 90yr old woman with crippling rheumatoid arthritis and brittle bones but disability is not “one size fits all”. At the same time, it’s not reasonable to have an infinite number of “sizes.” What the 90-year-old with crippling rheumatoid arthritis and you have in common is an inability to walk. In this case, if the solution works for both, it’s in the interests of efficiency not to subdivide the accommodations. I’m again asking you if you’ve read and understood Sam Stone’s posts. Do you understand the cost that you’re asking society to incur to solve a problem that _already has a solution in place_? ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/213 "2011-06-22T02:03:51Z")
Jamie, why don’t you just stop being cheap and just go buy your own plane? ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/214 "2011-06-22T02:08:53Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > No, it’s not “fair enough”. You were correct in your original assesment of the situation. It’s the whole experience I find appalling. From being loaded and over-strapped like a piece of over=sized luggage, to being pushed back and forth in what is essentially a garage stool; simply in order to utilize the facilities. Part of my repulsion at this may in fact be due to my age and functionality in the world, but that is part of my point. Those aisle chair systems may be acceptable (and appropriate) to the 90yr old woman with crippling rheumatoid arthritis and brittle bones but disability is not “one size fits all”. So you admit the aisle chair is: A) Sufficient to enable you to utilize the facilities. B) Necessary in order to enable other disabled people to utilize the facilities. The airlines will clearly need to keep the aisle chair around in order to enable disabled 90-year-old women to access the restroom. Yet you would have them design, certify, purchase, store and carry _another_ chair because you are embarrassed and “repulsed” at having to use the same hardware as a 90-year-old woman? Despite the fact that it does the job perfectly well? Don’t make unreasonable demands of the airline because you want to be some kind of “macho disabled dude” and prove your independence and ability to the random slobs sharing the airplane with you. No one gives a shit but you. I mean really, what is it, you feel like you’re better than “other” disabled people, you want everyone to know it, and having to use the same chair as those total invalids insults you and interferes with that? Get the fuck over it. ---
**Author:** ![Canadjun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@Canadjun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Canadjun)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/215 "2011-06-22T02:08:59Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > No, it’s not “fair enough”. You were correct in your original assesment of the situation. It’s the whole experience I find appalling. From being loaded and over-strapped like a piece of over=sized luggage, to being pushed back and forth in what is essentially a garage stool; simply in order to utilize the facilities. Part of my repulsion at this may in fact be due to my age and functionality in the world, but that is part of my point. Those aisle chair systems may be acceptable (and appropriate) to the 90yr old woman with crippling rheumatoid arthritis and brittle bones but disability is not “one size fits all”. One final comment for tonight (I go to bed early). If airlines tried to accommodate every disabled person’s preferences (yes, **preferences** ) they’d go bust. Accommodation is a two-way street. ---
**Author:** ![sinjin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@sinjin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sinjin)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/216 "2011-06-22T02:14:15Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > No, it’s not “fair enough”. You were correct in your original assesment of the situation. It’s the whole experience I find appalling. From being loaded and over-strapped like a piece of over=sized luggage, to being pushed back and forth in what is essentially a garage stool; simply in order to utilize the facilities. Part of my repulsion at this may in fact be due to my age and functionality in the world, but that is part of my point. Those aisle chair systems may be acceptable (and appropriate) to the 90yr old woman with crippling rheumatoid arthritis and brittle bones but disability is not “one size fits all”. It’s not a garage stool as has been pointed out before. You are whining way more than my 90 year old granny. Others have pointed out alternatives for you. Move on and get over yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/217 "2011-06-22T02:16:17Z")
> [@Canadjun](#): > > One final comment for tonight (I go to bed early). If airlines tried to accommodate every disabled person’s preferences (yes, **preferences** ) they’d go bust. Accommodation is a two-way street. That sounds like an opinion from someone “in the know”. Can you elaborate? Or was that just a “parting shot” before bed? And you are right, I have a preference to be treated like an adult. Guilty. What preferences do other disabled individuals have regarding their treatment on airlines that are comparable? I’m seriously asking. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/218 "2011-06-22T02:19:03Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > At the same time, it’s not reasonable to have an infinite number of “sizes.” What the 90-year-old with crippling rheumatoid arthritis and you have in common is an inability to walk. In this case, if the solution works for both, it’s in the interests of efficiency not to subdivide the accommodations. I’m again asking you if you’ve read and understood Sam Stone’s posts. Do you understand the cost that you’re asking society to incur to solve a problem that _already has a solution in place_? This is maddening. You and Sam are making the assumption, incorrectly, that I am demanding total airline renovations. I AM NOT. Do…you…understand…this. So if that isn’t your assumption, then you must be saying that to modify an aisle chair is just too much of a cost to society. Give me a break. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/219 "2011-06-22T02:23:52Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > So you admit the aisle chair is: > > A) Sufficient to enable you to utilize the facilities. > B) Necessary in order to enable other disabled people to utilize the facilities. > > The airlines will clearly need to keep the aisle chair around in order to enable disabled 90-year-old women to access the restroom. Yet you would have them design, certify, purchase, store and carry _another_ chair because you are embarrassed and “repulsed” at having to use the same hardware as a 90-year-old woman? Despite the fact that it does the job perfectly well? > > Don’t make unreasonable demands of the airline because you want to be some kind of “macho disabled dude” and prove your independence and ability to the random slobs sharing the airplane with you. No one gives a shit but you. > > I mean really, what is it, you feel like you’re better than “other” disabled people, you want everyone to know it, and having to use the same chair as those total invalids insults you and interferes with that? Get the fuck over it. You are never going to understand. It has NOTHING to do with others and there reactions, or lack thereof. Unreasonable? We disagree. We have different definitions of that word, clearly. And I have no feeling of superiority towards those with differing, or more extensive disabilities than myself. But that doesn’t mean I should then conform to the same restrictions of mobility that they suffer. I’m done though. People hide behind computer remarks with ease. Especially you. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/220 "2011-06-22T02:28:56Z")
What it boils down to is that you’re pissed off that you’re a paraplegic, and you want everything to be the way it was. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244.md?page=12)