# The Problem with Planes **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 21, 2011, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244 "2011-06-21T03:37:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/241 "2011-06-22T04:51:13Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I’ve built cars, planes and rehabbed houses. I have a far better idea of what’s involved in constructing anything having to do with aircraft than you do. Aside from that, everyone else grasps that it’s not possible to build a chair to meet everybody’s satisfaction AND the safety of all the passengers concerned. But there is NO product upon which to base all these opinions you are forming. That is what I don’t get. Everyone else grasps what? That is impossible to modify an aisle chair so that is able to be propelled by the user? And how did they arrive at such knowledge? Has there been attempts? Have there been models that didn’t work? Where is this certainty coming from? It’s bizarre… ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/242 "2011-06-22T04:52:27Z")
post 171 ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/243 "2011-06-22T04:55:44Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Anyone with common sense. By default you can’t negotiate the airplane without help. You have to be wheeled into it per your own admission. In turbulence you would be plastered all over the plane and other passengers if left to your own devices. Hahaha. LMAO. You are stunning. So to you, every single person who uses a wheelchair is the same. Has the same level of functioning and ability and has the same need for assistance in all scenarios, huh? I submit that I could probably handle turbulence on a flight, evne if “left to my own devices” a smidge better than even yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/244 "2011-06-22T05:01:51Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > post 171 Post 171 is nothing different. For the most part, he is speculating about a MOTORIZED aisle chair. I never suggested such a thing. He does mention the hand crank option, but again, speculation. And that wasnt even my idea, it was mentioned here by another poster. He is going on about something that I didn’t propose. It seems like a common theme in this thread. And again, even with what he IS talking about, where’s his evidence? ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/245 "2011-06-22T05:20:07Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > Hahaha. LMAO. You are stunning. So to you, every single person who uses a wheelchair is the same. Has the same level of functioning and ability and has the same need for assistance in all scenarios, huh? I submit that I could probably handle turbulence on a flight, evne if “left to my own devices” a smidge better than even yourself. This may well be true, but the problem is that the regulations (and I bet they are regulations) are made to cater to the lowest common denominator. In this sort of situation, who is going to judge which person needs help and which doesn’t? Is that something that can be left to a flight attendant? I wouldn’t think they have anything close to the experience neccessary. Should it be left to the individual? I also don’t think so. So what do you have? A set of rules that cater to most situations. Sure, you, as a macho body builder gets a little (and it is only a little) caught out by them. But also, what % of those in wheelchairs are in your, rather unique, situation? By following your argument, you may as well say that speed limits need not be observed by Al Unser Jnr as his driving skill renders them unneccessary. Is this a sutuation you want arising? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/246 "2011-06-22T05:25:11Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > Hahaha. LMAO. You are stunning. So to you, every single person who uses a wheelchair is the same. . And you are a party of one who expects the world to bend to your desires. The airline has a solution that meets the requirement of everyone needing transport to the bathroom as well as the safety of the other passengers. There is zero reason for them to build a chair for every handicapped passenger with a whim because at the end of the day it still needs a flight attendant to operate it. This has been explained to you 12 ways to Sunday. Not only are you not capable of returning to your seat in an emergency you are a danger to everybody else on the plane. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/247 "2011-06-22T06:48:53Z")
From a technical standpoint, it would probably be pretty trivial to put a motor on one of those aisle chairs linked earlier, and then, if it’s got a motor, it would be easy enough to install remote control, uh, controls, operated by a handheld device. At which point you could hand the controls to whomever is sitting in the chair and let them steer. You don’t need a lot of horsepower to move a chair twenty feet. Take one of those motorized bar stool kits to your local robotics club and they could probably set you up in an hour. But it doesn’t matter because the FAA is not going to approve driving a remote control go-kart - with no seat belts, mind you! - down the aisle of a turbulent plane, even if you could find a pilot who’d allow the infernal device on his ship (and you wouldn’t.) ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/248 "2011-06-22T07:36:25Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > From a technical standpoint, it would probably be pretty trivial to put a motor on one of those aisle chairs linked earlier, and then, if it’s got a motor, it would be easy enough to install remote control, uh, controls, operated by a handheld device. At which point you could hand the controls to whomever is sitting in the chair and let them steer. You don’t need a lot of horsepower to move a chair twenty feet. Take one of those motorized bar stool kits to your local robotics club and they could probably set you up in an hour. > > But it doesn’t matter because the FAA is not going to approve driving a remote control go-kart - with no seat belts, mind you! - down the aisle of a turbulent plane, even if you could find a pilot who’d allow the infernal device on his ship (and you wouldn’t.) And how do you steer it backwards? on a trip to the bathroom the operator would be going backwards either coming or going. Who is going to certify the passenger to operate a mechanical device on an airplane? Where is this mechanized chair going to be located? Next the chair used for the other passengers needing assistance? These are only a few questions that need answering. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/249 "2011-06-22T09:12:42Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > And how do you steer it backwards? on a trip to the bathroom the operator would be going backwards either coming or going. No problem. The remote control device will have a reverse mode. All you need are helmets with rear-view mirrors on either side and, perhaps, a simple beeping device to warn pedestrians that The Chair is in reverse. If necessary, flight attendants could be trained to say, “'Mon back” with appropriate hand gestures. > [@](#): > > Who is going to certify the passenger to operate a mechanical device on an airplane? > > Where is this mechanized chair going to be located? Next the chair used for the other passengers needing assistance? > > These are only a few questions that need answering. Yeah. That’s sort of my point. What I’m saying is, the practical suggestions he wants are the easy part. We have the technology. We can put a man on the moon - we can motor a man down a short aisle. It’s all the \*other \*questions he needs to be addressing: cost, aggravation for the other passengers, turbulence, safety, the reality that most wheelchair passengers are not bodybuilders, space, storage, seatbelts, etc. He wants us to give him practical suggestions for what he should do. How about he give us some practical answers for how he plans to address the above problem. What’s his solution for when someone refuses to wear a seatbelt and falls out of the chair and doesn’t have the strength to lift himself? What’s his solution for someone who overestimates his strength and goes slowly slowly slowly turning a hand crank, inching along, and holding everyone else up? What’s his solution for paying for these devices? What’s his plan for when a chair user inevitably runs into someone? What’s his plan to ensure that everyone who wants to use the chair is competent to do so? Building the chair is easy. It’s all this other stuff he needs to answer. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/250 "2011-06-22T12:38:03Z")
I don’t see where you have a complaint. Ask to be seated adjacent to the lavatory and IF you need help getting into and out of your seat to get to it, ask for it. Assuming it is possible to engineer and implement a system that you would approve of, the cost of it is going to be somewhat more than zero. The airlines are not going to eat this cost, they’re going to pass it on to the passengers. Just how much do you think I should have to pay more for my ticket in order to accommodate your perceived needs? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/251 "2011-06-22T12:44:23Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > ? > Are you referring to catheters? > > If so. LMAO There are urine collection catheters for men (which I presume you are - if not, please let us know) that resemble a condom with a hole on the end, which connects to a tube, which connects to a bag that can, as you note, be discreetly hidden under clothes. Problem solved. I know of these, because my disabled husband used them for decades, and still keeps a spare one around for occasions when it is useful. It is non-invasive and easily applied. Similar devices are used by able-bodied pilots on long-duration flights where no bathrooms are available. Women have it a little tougher, but there are solutions for them as well. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/252 "2011-06-22T12:46:47Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > And what makes you the expert on aisle chair design? The existing aisle chairs meet the safety requirements. I am suggesting modifying the chair so that it can be propelled by the user. Just because someone here has the opinion that it is not safe doesn’t make it so. I mean, such an aisle chair hasn’t even been made yet. So to speculate (and that is all it is) on it’s safety is just that; pure speculation. From the linked images of these chairs, I don’t think they’d have the space for the gearing necessary to make a push-pull or crank system usable by non-bodybuilders. For that matter, because of the aisle width constraint, the propulsion mechanism would have to be between your legs and retractable (so you could get into it), since if there were room to the sides there’d be room for standard drive wheels. > [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > Hahaha. LMAO. You are stunning. So to you, every single person who uses a wheelchair is the same. Has the same level of functioning and ability and has the same need for assistance in all scenarios, huh? Let’s phrase this differently: any wheelchair design proposed must be able to accommodate all wheelchair users, as the current design does already. Based on what I’ve said above, and other constraints (motorized is probably out due to the hazards of a large battery, as said above), I don’t think this is possible at our current level of engineering. You’re welcome to disagree, but at that point you probably ought to find someone who can do mechanical engineering to sketch it up, as you’ve got engineers in this thread telling you that what you’re proposing is mechanically infeasible at this time. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/253 "2011-06-22T12:56:54Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > How can you say it’s too much of a cost to the airlines? What is too much of a cost? The workable modifications haven’t even yet been decided on. For all you, or anyone here knows, it could be CHEAP. You got the wrong guy, dude, it’s the airlines are the ones that seem to think there’s not (yet) a cost-effective solution, else why would they refuse to have it? You seem to assume nobody’s even trying, I say maybe they are and failing. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/254 "2011-06-22T13:02:09Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > “The attendants could just physically lift you in and out of the john” > > Are you kidding me??? No that is unacceptable im sorry. Im not a 3yr old. I am a grown man, I don’t get picked up out of my seat and carried ANYWHERE. Just like YOU don’t. I think part of the problem is YOU, sir. You don’t seem to grasp that yes, you ARE disabled, there are things you can no longer do on your own. I’ve flown disabled passengers in small airplanes where they had to be physically lifted and out of the airplane. No, no one _likes_ that. Being a cripple sucks, as my husband frequently states. On the other hand, _he_ finds being assisted in and out of certain situations (and yes, sometimes that means being lifted by someone else) more dignified than literally falling on his face or pissing his pants because he’s too stubborn to ask for help getting to the bathroom. He’s also had the joy of getting into an airplane on his own then finding he can’t get back out of it without assistance. I tell ya, shopping for a family airplane wasn’t fun with having to consider that, though looking back we occasionally have a good chuckle over some of the sillier incidents. So, I’m sorry you’re butt-hurt because of the limitations you face. It’s not fair, you’re right on that point, but it’s an unfair thing I don’t see any way to fix short of restoring your ability to walk. You viewpoint that being assisted by the able-bodied is somehow “humiliating” is not universally shared by disabled people. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/255 "2011-06-22T13:08:22Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > I know, I know, I’m being entitled. I should just accept the fact that I’m handicapped and deal with all the hardships such a life brings about. So I should just keep my mouth shut and put up with the invalid treatment? Oh, no, not at all - I fully support your right to express your feelings on this subject, I just don’t agree with you. Hey, come up with something better if you don’t like the current solution(s). No one has more motivation than you. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/256 "2011-06-22T13:50:31Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > LOL, trust me, they aren’t afraid of saying ANYTHING! I can’t even wheel myself up the connecting tunnel onto the plane because the airlines have a protocol they must follow and I have to be pushed by an employee. When I laughingly say “Oh, it’s cool, I can handle this”, they (almost comically) tell me “Sir! We MUST escort you to the plane!” lol And able-bodied people leaving a hospital after treatment are required to ride in wheelchairs that they absolutely don’t need. “I can walk!” - “Oh, no - hospital policy requires you to be wheeled to the door!” Really. Yes, sometimes you have to conform to a policy that doesn’t quite fit the needs of your dignity. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/257 "2011-06-22T14:18:12Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > Perhaps the devices mentioned are a possibility, I’d have to investigate further. I didnt ignore the ideas though, if you go back you can see my questions. I DID ignore the whole “buy a plane” thing. PLEASE. You might as well buy it for me.:rolleyes: Well, hell, get a pilot’s license and do your own flying. You’ll be the pilot and in charge. You can make the rules and protect your dignity as you see fit. Of course, the airplanes within reach of purchase for less-than-millionaires don’t have bathrooms. You’ll _definitely_ be spared the indignity of an aisle chair on those. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/258 "2011-06-22T14:33:34Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Overall winner of the 2007 Caveman Classic huh. > > You look pretty handicapable in the picture, Jamie. Yeah, you look pretty damn buff. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/259 "2011-06-22T15:08:25Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > And what makes you the expert on aisle chair design? The existing aisle chairs meet the safety requirements. I am suggesting modifying the chair so that it can be propelled by the user. Just because someone here has the opinion that it is not safe doesn’t make it so. I mean, such an aisle chair hasn’t even been made yet. So to speculate (and that is all it is) on it’s safety is just that; pure speculation. Hey, I think I may have found the [perfect solution](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:IT_%28South_Park;_The_Entity%29.jpeg)! ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/260 "2011-06-22T15:38:36Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > This is a complaint that hits close to home for me. My sister-in-law is essentially a quadrapalegic, thanks to MS, and my wife and two other sisters are her primary caregiver. > > We haven’t been able to take her on a plane in years, partly because of the bathroom issue and partly because of the way we were treated by the airline staff last time we flew. It’s humiliating for her, and unbelievably difficult to get her in and out of airplane seats. In that case, I hope you complained to the airline, or considered a different airline - some are known for being cheap, some are more expensive, but with good personnell. > [@](#): > > In my opinion, a reasonable accommodation by the airlines would be to replace one aisle seat per plane with a mobile/removeable seat narrow enough to move up and down the aisle. This seat would have a seatbelt and would be secured to the floor of the plane for travel and could be used by any able-bodied passenger as well as the disabled. > > In the case of a wheelchair bound passenger, the seat could be wheeled out to the terminal for the disabled passenger to be tranferred, and then wheeled back on to the plane and secured in place. > > This would require some safety engineering to make sure the seat is secure, but would not require re-designing the plane or reducing the available seating. It would also enable the disabled passenger to be wheeled to the restroom (not necessarily under their own power). > > Anyway, it’s just a dream. I feel bad for my SIL who misses out on family vacations or visiting faraway friends because she can’t travel by air. First, although IAMNAEngineer, I think that would require a load of expensive re-designing and testing to make sure that the seat doesn’t come loose during turbulences or crashes, yet can easily be detached when desired. And since people in wheelchair can be accomodated, I doubt there is much push to spend millions to improve things. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244.md?page=14)