# The Problem with Planes **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 21, 2011, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244 "2011-06-21T03:37:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/261 "2011-06-22T15:40:30Z")
> [@silk1976](#): > > The way I see it - I pay the airline a price, and they bring me from point A to point B as fast as possible. In return, I deal with a lot of inconveniences, but in the end I determine that putting up with them is worth the time savings. > > Afterall, my other options are to drive, take the train or take a bus. All of which take far too long and inconvenience me even more. > > Thats also my general attitude towards people who take great umbrage with the TSA and security proceedings. By purchasing an airline ticket, one has inherently decided that time is more important than virtually any inconvenience they have to endure. Some may read that as to say that I’m all for treating people like crap - I’m not. On the contrary, you vote with your dollars - which is a far more powerful voice. The problem is that car/ train/ bus are only an alternative inside the continental US, not for flights across the ocean. Most ships covering the transatlantic routes are cruise ships that are very very expensive, normal ship routes having died out with cheap air travel. So in many cases and for many people, there is no alternative to the TSA, or planes. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/262 "2011-06-22T17:14:08Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > In that case, I hope you complained to the airline, or considered a different airline - some are known for being cheap, some are more expensive, but with good personnell. Nothing is going to change the fact that it is unbelievably difficult to get a quadriplegic in and out of an airplane. A small adult would be like handling (3) 40 lb bags of salt. It sucks for all concerned and there is no way of doing this gracefully. As far as airline personnel goes, each person is different so it’s not going to be a function of smiley faces for every attendant who has to deal with what is a very difficult situation. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Man_In_Black)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/263 "2011-06-22T17:33:13Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > My rights ARE being violated. Then contact the authorities. There isn;t anything we can do on a message board. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/264 "2011-06-22T18:55:35Z")
> [@The\_Man\_In\_Black](#): > > Then contact the authorities. There isn;t anything we can do on a message board. There isn’t??? Really? Oh, on! Well thank you, Smart man! :rolleyes::rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/265 "2011-06-22T18:59:34Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > And you are a party of one who expects the world to bend to your desires. > > The airline has a solution that meets the requirement of everyone needing transport to the bathroom as well as the safety of the other passengers. There is zero reason for them to build a chair for every handicapped passenger with a whim because at the end of the day it still needs a flight attendant to operate it. This has been explained to you 12 ways to Sunday. Not only are you not capable of returning to your seat in an emergency you are a danger to everybody else on the plane. A whim??? A whim. And what, pray tell, other “whims” do you envision wheelchair users having when it comes to this issue? Please tell me. And keep in mind, my “whim” is simply the desire to take myself to and from the restroom on flights. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/266 "2011-06-22T19:01:01Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Yeah, you look pretty damn buff. Which is why I’m not really seeing the oppressive humiliation the OP keeps complaining about. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/267 "2011-06-22T19:09:12Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > There isn’t??? Really? Oh, on! Well thank you, Smart man! :rolleyes::rolleyes: What _have_ you done in that area? Which officials from what businesses have you contacted? What have _you_ done to further your cause? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/268 "2011-06-22T19:19:13Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > To me, this is forcing those of us who can’t walk to be treated as second-class citizens. I refuse to EVER fly on an airplane again unless and until major changes are made to the airline industry. As a compentent, autonomous adult who has paid just as much for my ticket as every other passenger, I don’t feel I am demanding too much when I say I should be able to take myself to and from the restroom ON MY OWN. For the longest time, I was absolutely baffled as to why this issue hadn’t sparked more outrage within the disabled community. There simply HAD to be a reason, for this is simply WRONG. But I think I have at least a partial explanation… I don’t think its second class citizenship but I can see how airplanes are more of an inconvenience for you than it is for most riders (its an inconvenience for all of us). But, boycotting air travel by the disabled isn’t going to make a lick of difference to the airlines. That is why they had to pass the ADA to begin with. If given a choice between losing business from the disabled and not having to double the size of bathrooms, a lot of businesses would probably just live without the business from the disabled. When you say “I don’t feel I am demanding too much when I say I should be able to take myself to and from the restroom ON MY OWN” you are implying that you are making a reasonable request. Perhaps you can invent the next big thing that will allow airlines to meet all their safety regulations while accomodating you but right now it seems like you have a complaint without a ready answer. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/269 "2011-06-22T19:22:46Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > Hey buddy, if I’m capable I’m doing it. I’d like there to be a better alternative available but there isn’t. The current system in place is not acceptable to me. I make no apologies for my actions. None. I refuse to be publically humiliated. You do realize that noone is TRYING to humiliate you right? We recently had a pit thread where a guy got cricified for using a disabled parking space for loading and offloading even though there were plenty of other disabled parking spots available, just on the principle that someone might come along and want to park in those specific spots rather than any of the empty disabled parking spots that were available. I don’t think anyone looks at you with any more pity or scorn for using the aisle chair than they would if you used a self propelled wheelchair. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/270 "2011-06-22T19:28:55Z")
You’re not the only one with rights, dude. I have the right to fly on a plane and not have your sorry ass land in my lap when there’s sudden turbulence. So you don’t like being buckled in the aisle chair. Boo fucking hoo. It’s for your own safety as well as the rest of us. So you don’t like getting pushed by an attendant. Cry me a fucking river. With the available aisle chair, that’s your only option other than wearing a diaper. Your needs are being met with reasonable accommodation, that’s all you’re entitled to. If you can think of better ways, then contact the aircraft manufacturers and they might put you on an advisory panel. All I’m seeing here is a bunch of petty whining. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/271 "2011-06-22T19:33:26Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > It is clear that I have failed in communicating the clear wrongs that exist on airplane flights regarding handicap accessibility. I have tried to make my case but it is falling on deaf ears. Many ppl seem to think I am being “unreasonable” in wanting what I want or that I am demanding things be “perfect” for me. This is so out-of-line it’s humorous. I guess the only REAL way to ever understand certain things is to live through them yourself. I am not just “complaining” here on this discussion board. Advocacy for the rights of the disabled is one of the most important things IN MY LIFE. By no means is it limited to issues surrounding flights. I am just talking about it here, too, so that THAT many more people will begin engaging in the discussion as well. I am a 31 yr old man who has been paralyzed for the past 11yrs. I live alone. I am a competitive bodybuilder. I am NOT an invalid. Usually, when I fly, it is for a bodybuilding competition. Part of a bb-competition pre-contest diet included super-hydration with water. This means drinking 2-2.5 gallons of water per day. When you are drinking this much water, it doesn’t matter if you empty your bladder RIGHT BEFORE the flight or not. You WILL need to use the plane’s bathroom. And I have full sensation in my body as well and the idea of even temporarily using a catheter (sticking a tube down my urethra into my bladder to drain it) makes me CRINGE. Im not asking for “special treatment” or extra stuff on a flight. I am asking for a similar flight experience of that of my able-bodied peers (who didn’t pay any more money for their ticket than I did). Im sorry for all the misunderstanding that this thread has caused. I think you’re shocked because you never hear this sort of stuff in person. Who the heck tells a disabled person they have an overdeveloped sense of entitlement to their face. But in reality some disabled people do have an overdeveloped sense of entitlement. The fact that noone tells you this to your face sounds like something that would offend you rather than surprise you. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/272 "2011-06-22T19:35:01Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What _have_ you done in that area? Which officials from what businesses have you contacted? What have _you_ done to further your cause? Everything from contacting the airlines themselves to the overall FAA and my local disability advocacy groups. And it is startling how little traction I have been able to muster. It doesn’t mean I am stopping, or giving up, it just means I must try other, more effective means. This here (on this board) was nothing more than my attempt to guage the public’s reaction to some of what I’m going through. I will be the first to admit I may have not done this in the best way, my emotions have broken through at times. But my intent here was nothing more than to get a slice of the typical person’s thoughts. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/273 "2011-06-22T19:36:21Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > Everything from contacting the airlines themselves to the overall FAA and my local disability advocacy groups. And how did the airlines respond? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/274 "2011-06-22T19:38:11Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > Perhaps there is a way of making the aisle chairs independently mobile other than fitting them with large outer wheels that are pushed by the user? There you go. Build a better mousetrap and see if there is a demand for it. > [@](#): > > And another fuzzy area here is the legal definition of “reasonable”. Who determines what “reasonable” is? The courts, generally. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/275 "2011-06-22T19:39:31Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I think you’re shocked because you never hear this sort of stuff in person. Who the heck tells a disabled person they have an overdeveloped sense of entitlement to their face. But in reality some disabled people do have an overdeveloped sense of entitlement. The fact that noone tells you this to your face sounds like something that would offend you rather than surprise you. It has no effect on me whatsoever when someone tells me I’m “entitled”. I know it better than anyone on the face of the earth that the truth is the polar opposite. I feel it down in my bones. I feel it in every fiber of my body. I am not just fighting for myself, I have lots of handicap peers who are rallying me and supportive of my advocacy. I am not swayed in the least by anything anyone has said here in this thread. I hope people understand this. I wasnt’ coming here looking for answers. Go back and read my OP. It wasn’t framed as a question, it was an informative, revelatory post. Oh, and TRUST ME, I absolutely hear that sort of stuff in person…all the time 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/276 "2011-06-22T19:43:03Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > OK let’s leave the emotion aside for a bit and talk practical. > The OP has to admit that they are not the average run of the mill wheelchair transported airline passenger. > For the record I spent 15 years in a job where I traveled 50% of the time, I have been on a shitload of airplanes. I have probably seen more wheelchair passengers than most people. > So start with the following assumptions: > [ol] > [li]Any solution has to be able to accommodate all wheelchair bound passengers not just a few. [/li][li]The solution has to be safe not just for the WC passenger, but the other passengers, and airline staff as well.[/li][li]The cost to the airlines cannot be prohibitive[/li][li]FAA has to approve it[/li][li]Has to be practical[/li][/ol] > So let’s talk about some of the ideas that have been proposed, and address when they fail one of the assumptions above. What about my suggestion earlier? A seat that could be used by ordinary passengers, but can also be unsecured and rolled down the aisle to assist wheelchair passengers loading and unloading (and going to the bathrooms). This doesn’t address the OPs need to propell himself but it would make the trip a hell of alot easier for other disabled passengers and the only hurdle I see is designing a way to secure the seat to the floor that satisfies the FAA. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/277 "2011-06-22T19:47:09Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > You’re not the only one with rights, dude. I have the right to fly on a plane and not have your sorry ass land in my lap when there’s sudden turbulence. So you don’t like being buckled in the aisle chair. Boo fucking hoo. It’s for your own safety as well as the rest of us. So you don’t like getting pushed by an attendant. Cry me a fucking river. With the available aisle chair, that’s your only option other than wearing a diaper. Your needs are being met with reasonable accommodation, that’s all you’re entitled to. If you can think of better ways, then contact the aircraft manufacturers and they might put you on an advisory panel. All I’m seeing here is a bunch of petty whining. Uhhhghh…Yuck ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/278 "2011-06-22T19:49:27Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And how did the airlines respond? They told me there was nothing they could do but offer me a free flight. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![StarvingButStrong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/starvingbutstrong/32/335_2.png) [@StarvingButStrong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StarvingButStrong)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/279 "2011-06-22T19:50:30Z")
You know, I think I somewhat understand the OP’s position. Clearly autonomy is important to him – despite his paralysis he lives alone, and he must invest a lot of time and effort in bodybuilding to make himself as physically able as he possibly can. I find that admirable. And that probably means that that autonomy and self-reliance and self-competence is very important to his sense of self. So suddenly having to submit to being strapped into immobility and pushed around by some else…yes, I can see he finds it humliating. But… I really can’t see the airlines investing much time or money in changing the situation. It’s a number thing: people needing wheelchairs are a very small percent of their clientele. People who need wheelchairs AND who also have very strong upper bodies are (guessing) a small percent of all wheel chair users. People who use wheelchairs AND have upper body strength AND have ego issues tied into having their chairs pushed in this one, relatively short-termed situation… A minority of a minority of a minority…what are we maybe talking about? Are there ten people in this subset in the entire country? I simply don’t think the airlines will retool to fix a problem that rare, and I don’t think you’ll be able to get the government to pass laws to force them to help just a handful of people either. Perhaps swapping some of that Gatorade for a beverage with more kick would help you endure the situation with less aggravation. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/280 "2011-06-22T19:51:46Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > I am not swayed in the least by anything anyone has said here in this thread. I hope people understand this. I wasnt’ coming here looking for answers. On behalf of all those who sincerely tried to help you with with your problem, thank you for wasting our time. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244.md?page=15)