# The Problem with Planes **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 21, 2011, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244 "2011-06-21T03:37:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/281 "2011-06-22T19:52:16Z")
> [@StarvingButStrong](#): > > You know, I think I somewhat understand the OP’s position. Clearly autonomy is important to him – despite his paralysis he lives alone, and he must invest a lot of time and effort in bodybuilding to make himself as physically able as he possibly can. > > I find that admirable. > > And that probably means that that autonomy and self-reliance and self-competence is very important to his sense of self. So suddenly having to submit to being strapped into immobility and pushed around by some else…yes, I can see he finds it humliating. > > But… I really can’t see the airlines investing much time or money in changing the situation. It’s a number thing: people needing wheelchairs are a very small percent of their clientele. People who need wheelchairs AND who also have very strong upper bodies are (guessing) a small percent of all wheel chair users. People who use wheelchairs AND have upper body strength AND have ego issues tied into having their chairs pushed in this one, relatively short-termed situation… > > A minority of a minority of a minority…what are we maybe talking about? Are there ten people in this subset in the entire country? > > I simply don’t think the airlines will retool to fix a problem that rare, and I don’t think you’ll be able to get the government to pass laws to force them to help just a handful of people either. > > Perhaps swapping some of that Gatorade for a beverage with more kick would help you endure the situation with less aggravation. 😉 LOL, ok I can appreciate THIS post. Thanks for understanding. Really. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/282 "2011-06-22T19:53:58Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > On behalf of all those who sincerely tried to help you with with your problem, thank you for wasting our time. No, that’s not what I meant. But at the same time, I believe those that SINCERELY tried to help were in the minority here. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/283 "2011-06-22T19:55:04Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > Well, in the case of you being “inconvenienced”, you still get to USE THE BATHROOM. In the case of me being “inconvenienced” I am stuck outside the stalls, staring desperately at the empty toilets I can’t use. Would you have less of a problem with it if the social norm was to pinch the loaf, wipe and moved to an empty stall? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/284 "2011-06-22T19:58:34Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > They told me there was nothing they could do but offer me a free flight. :smack: Did you take it? ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/285 "2011-06-22T19:58:45Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Would you have less of a problem with it if the social norm was to pinch the loaf, wipe and moved to an empty stall? I’m sorry, I don’t understand your question. Maybe you could phrase it differently? ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/286 "2011-06-22T20:00:41Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Did you take it? Well it had a catch, it had to be used within a certain time frame and I didn’t have any trips upcoming for like another 9months. So by the next time I was flying, the offer had expired. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/287 "2011-06-22T20:08:16Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > Save the luxurious, relaxing dumps for the ones you take at home. We’re talking about public toilets here. I have the right to the access to usable toilets just like you do. And when you CHOOSE that stall when others are available to you, that access is compromised. I will and do wait, just like everyone does, when ALL THE STALLS ARE OCCUPIED. THAT is a fact of life. HANDICAP-ACCESSIBLE STALLS ARE STALLS OF NECESSITY. PERIOD. THis is not unfair, this is not “special treatment” for the disabled, this is leveling the playing field (and not even that really). Yeah, I hear you. I would imagine that you end up waiting for a stall a lot more often than i do because the handicap stall is the stall of first resort for a lot of people and you need it not only for pooping but also for peeing. The poster you replied to asked if it would be OK if they vacated the stall if and when you showed up. Is THAT too much of an inconvenience? The handicap stall might be somewhere be analogous to the handicap seat on the subway. you can sit there with the understanding that you vacate the seat if someone who needs it boards the train. Or the handicap seat at the movies, you sit there at your own risk if someone who needs it comes along, you have to move. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/288 "2011-06-22T20:08:40Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > No, that’s not what I meant. But at the same time, I believe those that SINCERELY tried to help were in the minority here. One more time-the average aisle is 17 inches wide. The average coach seat is between 17 and 17 1/2 inches wide. That seat is already too narrow to be comfortable for most people, and to safely fit down the aisle it would need maybe an inch and a half on each side. This would mean your hypothetical movable aisle seat would have to be, _at most_, 14 inches wide. No amount of engineering on earth can change this. Could you sit in a 14 inch wide seat for any amount of time in comfort? Could you sit in a 14 inch wide seat _at all_? ---
**Author:** ![Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mean_mr.mustard/32/3865_2.png) [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mean_Mr.Mustard)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/289 "2011-06-22T20:12:01Z")
Molehill \>\>\> Mountain Honest to god, were it me I would simply slap on a Depends for the flight, then clean up in the airport restroom. mmm ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/290 "2011-06-22T20:19:39Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > One more time-the average aisle is 17 inches wide. The average coach seat is between 17 and 17 1/2 inches wide. That seat is already too narrow to be comfortable for most people, and to safely fit down the aisle it would need maybe an inch and a half on each side. This would mean your hypothetical movable aisle seat would have to be, _at most_, 14 inches wide. No amount of engineering on earth can change this. Could you sit in a 14 inch wide seat for any amount of time in comfort? > Could you sit in a 14 inch wide seat _at all_? I’m a bit confused as to what exactly you are referring to. All I’ve been talking about is modifying something THAT ALREADY EXISTS (the “aisle chair”). Do I need to say that one more time? Should I say it slow? Let me know. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/291 "2011-06-22T20:20:27Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > Thanks! OOH!! Thanks I just ordered a 3 pack for my car. I wish I had this during teh snow storms last winter. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/292 "2011-06-22T20:20:50Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > Molehill \>\>\> Mountain > > Honest to god, were it me I would simply slap on a Depends for the flight, then clean up in the airport restroom. > > mmm Oh how easy it is to type those words. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/293 "2011-06-22T20:22:03Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Yeah, I hear you. I would imagine that you end up waiting for a stall a lot more often than i do because the handicap stall is the stall of first resort for a lot of people and you need it not only for pooping but also for peeing. The poster you replied to asked if it would be OK if they vacated the stall if and when you showed up. Is THAT too much of an inconvenience? > > The handicap stall might be somewhere be analogous to the handicap seat on the subway. you can sit there with the understanding that you vacate the seat if someone who needs it boards the train. Or the handicap seat at the movies, you sit there at your own risk if someone who needs it comes along, you have to move. People don’t behave that way, not in a toilet stall at least. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/294 "2011-06-22T20:47:06Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > I’m a bit confused as to what exactly you are referring to. All I’ve been talking about is modifying something THAT ALREADY EXISTS (the “aisle chair”). Do I need to say that one more time? Should I say it slow? Let me know. 😉 Sometimes the term “aisle seat” was used, which confuses the matter. Let’s examine possible solutions to your problem. 1. Scooting on your ass down the aisle is too silly and dangerous to even consider. It blocks the aisle for too long a period of time, and if anything happened along the way it would be a bitch to safely get you off the floor and back into your seat. I presume you weigh over 150 lbs., which is too damn much to expect a steward or stewardess to lift off the floor. Solution? Don’t do this. 2. Scooting down the aisle on the aisle seat without the safety straps. If you fall off, well..see #1. Solution? Don’t do this. 3. Buckling yourself in and doing it yourself. The attendants have no way of knowing if you are qualified to do this, but they _do_ know that they are in a world of hurt if they allow you to do it and something bad happens, so they _can’t_. Solution? Don’t do this. 4. Stick or little wheels to propel you which supposedly works just fine for you. Like #3, the attendants don’t know jack about you and your amazing abilities, and so the aisle chair was designed to work with the average handi-capable person in mind. _Possible_ solution? Find or invent your own that would fit airline regulations, and try to convince them to let you store in on the plane. I don’t know how far you’ll get what with storage space on board being what it is today, but maybe if it was collapsible…? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/295 "2011-06-22T20:47:43Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > It has no effect on me whatsoever when someone tells me I’m “entitled”. I know it better than anyone on the face of the earth that the truth is the polar opposite. I feel it down in my bones. I feel it in every fiber of my body. I am not just fighting for myself, I have lots of handicap peers who are rallying me and supportive of my advocacy. I am not swayed in the least by anything anyone has said here in this thread. I hope people understand this. I wasnt’ coming here looking for answers. Go back and read my OP. It wasn’t framed as a question, it was an informative, revelatory post. Oh, and TRUST ME, I absolutely hear that sort of stuff in person…all the time 🙂 Just because you really really believe it doesn’t make it objectively true. Doesn’t the fact that disabled advocacy groups are nto responsive to you tell you that perhaps you might be incorrect? Does the fact that you hear people say you have an overdeveloped sense of entitlement “all the time” tell you that you might have an overdeveloped se4nse of entitlement? I for one have never heard anyone in public or private accuse the disabled of an overdeveloped sense of entitlement and yet you hear this to your face “all the time”? Are you exaggerating or do you surround yourself with people who are paralyzed from the neck down? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/296 "2011-06-22T20:50:29Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > People don’t behave that way, not in a toilet stall at least. But if they did, would the toilet stall thing stop bothering you? ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/297 "2011-06-22T21:06:24Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Just because you really really believe it doesn’t make it objectively true. > > Doesn’t the fact that disabled advocacy groups are nto responsive to you tell you that perhaps you might be incorrect? > > Does the fact that you hear people say you have an overdeveloped sense of entitlement “all the time” tell you that you might have an overdeveloped se4nse of entitlement? > > I for one have never heard anyone in public or private accuse the disabled of an overdeveloped sense of entitlement and yet you hear this to your face “all the time”? Are you exaggerating or do you surround yourself with people who are paralyzed from the neck down? Ok, “all the time” might be a tad hyperbolic but i have heard it in person before. And no, the disability advocacy groups in my area are simply pathetic. And really it’s just “group”, there is just one. It’s poorly run, poorly funded and doesn’t really even live up to it’s name. And just because OTHER ppl call me entitled doesn’t make it objectively true. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/298 "2011-06-22T21:07:51Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > But if they did, would the toilet stall thing stop bothering you? I’m sure it would but it’s hard to say we’re discussing a hypothetical that has no possibility of becoming reality. ---
**Author:** ![Delayed\_Reflex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/delayed_reflex/32/3172_2.png) [@Delayed\_Reflex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Delayed_Reflex)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/299 "2011-06-22T21:07:53Z")
> [@treis](#): > > The problem is, as I see it, is that having a self propelled chair doesn’t gain you any real mobility improvement. I assume these things can’t be stored by your seat, so an attendant will need to bring you the chair anyhow. Thus, being self propelled doesn’t make you more independent. You still will need to wait on the attendant, and the attendant will have to wait for you to be finished to store the chair. > > [snipped] > > **3. You have to be strapped in** > > This is an obvious liability issue for the airlines. So long as you are going to be using their wheel chair on their airplane, they are going to force you to do so in the safest way possible. And realistically, this is isn’t that big of a deal. They’re nothing more than seat belts. > [@aaelghat](#): > > I think the other practical point is that once the chair was wheeled to the bathroom, you couldn’t just leave it there while you were inside as it might block ingress/egress to the other bathrooms, the galley, and generally just block the aisle. > > So an airline attendant would need to either ensure it was locked down and would not roll, or would need to put it somewhere out of the way until you were through. So an attendant would be needed every step of the way, anyway. > > I can understand the desire to be as independent as possible. At the same time, I know in many hospitals they require someone to wheelchair you to the street when you are discharged - even if you are able-bodied. The reasons I was given were along the lines of insurance requirements and liability. > > This is inline for why the airlines insist on wheeling you on the jetway and in the aisles. Not sure if you missed these posts Jamie, but I am curious as to what your thoughts are regarding these responses. My expectation is that even if they _could_ design a self-propelled chair, it would do nothing to alleviate airline attendant involvement or reduce the apparent intrusiveness of the safety features of the chair. As such, I am surprised to hear that you feel that there could be significant improvement to the status quo. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/300 "2011-06-22T21:08:43Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > Well it had a catch, it had to be used within a certain time frame and I didn’t have any trips upcoming for like another 9months. So by the next time I was flying, the offer had expired. Eh, even with the hassle, it’s a shame you couldn’t use it. Airfares are getting outrageous, that could have been worth a pretty penny. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244.md?page=16)