# The Problem with Planes **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 21, 2011, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244 "2011-06-21T03:37:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![srzss05](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/898d66/32.png) [@srzss05](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/srzss05)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/301 "2011-06-22T21:11:16Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > I’m a bit confused as to what exactly you are referring to. All I’ve been talking about is modifying something THAT ALREADY EXISTS (the “aisle chair”). Do I need to say that one more time? Should I say it slow? Let me know. 😉 Read post #294 that responds to this, and repeats what has been said about 3 dozen times as well that you seem hell-bent on ignoring. You respond to every single other post, and ignore those that tell you why your “request” is either unreasonable or impractical. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/302 "2011-06-22T21:21:55Z")
> [@srzss05](#): > > Read post #294 that responds to this, and repeats what has been said about 3 dozen times as well that you seem hell-bent on ignoring. You respond to every single other post, and ignore those that tell you why your “request” is either unreasonable or impractical. No, those are opinions based on hypotheticals presented in this thread. I didn’t respond to that particular post, I’m sorry, I get a little backlogged here. I simply disagree with the assertions he’s making. Don’t know what else to say. I have responded though, go back and look. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![srzss05](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/898d66/32.png) [@srzss05](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/srzss05)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/303 "2011-06-22T21:26:03Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > No, those are opinions based on hypotheticals presented in this thread. What more did you expect to get here? I’m really confused as to what your goal is. Did you think that posting here would magically make your “problem” disappear? Edit—you don’t have to answer every single post, but it sure seems like you avoided those posts, or at best took a tangent from them and ran with that instead. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/304 "2011-06-22T21:34:02Z")
> [@Delayed\_Reflex](#): > > Not sure if you missed these posts Jamie, but I am curious as to what your thoughts are regarding these responses. My expectation is that even if they _could_ design a self-propelled chair, it would do nothing to alleviate airline attendant involvement or reduce the apparent intrusiveness of the safety features of the chair. As such, I am surprised to hear that you feel that there could be significant improvement to the status quo. For one thing, counter to what the poster said, the chair DOES in fact get left right outside the bathroom door while I use the facilities. This is/would be the case under any circumstances, so discussing that is irrelevant here. Secondly, I’m not sure why someone would think I would have any sort of issue with having this aisle chair brought to me from an attendant. That is the sort of help that is useful and very much needed in this circumstance. And the “strapping in”. If it were simply a seatbelt, I could deal with that. But it’s more than that. I think there should be some way of voluntarily waiving the shoulder and various upper body constraints that the aisle chair features if one so desires. One has to do nothing more than to look at me to see that I am more than capable of securing myself in the seat with a simple over-the-lap seatbelt. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/305 "2011-06-22T21:34:03Z")
> [@srzss05](#): > > What more did you expect to get here? I’m really confused as to what your goal is. Did you think that posting here would magically make your “problem” disappear? The OP has said several times that he wanted to gauge other people’s thoughts on the issue. I thought that was pretty clear. ---
**Author:** ![srzss05](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/898d66/32.png) [@srzss05](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/srzss05)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/306 "2011-06-22T21:37:12Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > The OP has said several times that he wanted to gauge other people’s thoughts on the issue. I thought that was pretty clear. Yeah, he said that. But I don’t think that was what he really wanted. However, it is pretty clear what the consensus is. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/307 "2011-06-22T21:38:12Z")
> [@srzss05](#): > > What more did you expect to get here? I’m really confused as to what your goal is. Did you think that posting here would magically make your “problem” disappear? > > Edit—you don’t have to answer every single post, but it sure seems like you avoided those posts, or at best took a tangent from them and ran with that instead. Ok, you obviously have not read this entire thread. My only goal here was to get a little slice of “outside world’s” reaction and take on the matter. That and to inform. My “problem-solving” work on this issue is taking place elsewhere. Not on a message board. LOL ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/308 "2011-06-22T21:39:54Z")
> [@srzss05](#): > > Yeah, he said that. But I don’t think that was what he really wanted. However, it is pretty clear what the consensus is. ?Huh? What do you think was the true motive for all of this then?? And you are right, the general consensus is fairly clear. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/309 "2011-06-22T21:41:29Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > I think there should be some way of voluntarily waiving the shoulder and various upper body constraints that the aisle chair features if one so desires. One has to do nothing more than to look at me to see that I am more than capable of securing myself in the seat with a simple over-the-lap seatbelt. One more freakin’ time- 1.The chair was not designed with _you_ in mind. It was designed to accommodate the average wheelchair bound person. 3. They cannot waive responsibility for your safety. “He _looked_ like he could do it” is not something that would work in a court of law if you decide to sue. Will you at least acknowledge these two points? ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/310 "2011-06-22T21:43:46Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > One more freakin’ time- > 1.The chair was not designed with _you_ in mind. It was designed to accommodate the average wheelchair bound person. > 3. They cannot waive responsibility for your safety. “He _looked_ like he could do it” is not something that would work in a court of law if you decide to sue. > > Will you at least acknowledge these two points? YES. Ok, then make a freakin’ legal disclaimer-waiver available for one to sign then. THAT would work in a court of law. ---
**Author:** ![srzss05](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/898d66/32.png) [@srzss05](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/srzss05)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/311 "2011-06-22T21:50:52Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > YES. > Ok, then make a freakin’ legal disclaimer-waiver available for one to sign then. THAT would work in a court of law. There you go again. You saw the first point as well, right? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/312 "2011-06-22T21:51:53Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > YES. > Ok, then make a freakin’ legal disclaimer-waiver available for one to sign then. THAT would work in a court of law. I could just hear the (rightful, in my opinion) screaming of various handicap rights advocates that the handicapped were being asked to sign away their rights. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/313 "2011-06-22T21:55:58Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I could just hear the (rightful, in my opinion) screaming of various handicap rights advocates that the handicapped were being asked to sign away their rights. Oh please, nobody’s asking them to do anything. That’s something that’s merely there if someone wishes a bit more independence. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/314 "2011-06-22T21:56:23Z")
Actually, I’ll say this: I think the OP’s suggestion that the aisle chairs need to be outfitted with some way of allowing the person to propel themselves is just impractical and unworkable. But his two other suggestions (that the people who get in the aisle chairs could buckle themselves up if they wished, and that some people who have to use the chair might not need both lap belts and shoulder restraints to be secure in the 15 foot ride to the bathroom) seem pretty reasonable to me. Some disabled passengers are not capable of belting themselves in – and flight attendants should help them. Those that can belt themselves in, should be allowed to. They’re fastening a seatbelt, not doing complex origami. We don’t make non-disabled passengers sign a waiver in order for them to buckle themselves into an airline seat without flight attendant assistance. If someone can buckle themselves into an aisle chair while a flight attendant watches to make sure that they can do it (and maybe make adjustments if they do a lousy job), I don’t see why a competent disabled person should have to sign a legal waiver to buckle a freakin’ lap belt. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/315 "2011-06-22T22:01:11Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > We don’t make non-disabled passengers sign a waiver in order for them to buckle themselves into an airline seat without flight attendant assistance. If someone can buckle themselves into an aisle chair while a flight attendant watches to make sure that they can do it (and maybe make adjustments if they do a lousy job), I don’t see why a competent disabled person should have to sign a legal waiver to buckle a freakin’ lap belt. Not the same thing at all. If something goes wrong with the aisle chair or the person occupying it, the entire aisle is blocked, and that is a definite safety issue. The attendants don’t have the time or the expertise to determine which handicapped person is capable of which actions, so to save time and preserve the safety of the other passengers they have developed standard procedures. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/316 "2011-06-22T22:11:20Z")
> [@srzss05](#): > > There you go again. You saw the first point as well, right? Didn’t my response cover both those points?😕 ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/317 "2011-06-22T22:16:25Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Not the same thing at all. If something goes wrong with the aisle chair or the person occupying it, the entire aisle is blocked, and that is a definite safety issue. The attendants don’t have the time or the expertise to determine which handicapped person is capable of which actions, so to save time and preserve the safety of the other passengers they have developed standard procedures. How is it a safety issue? Explain this to me in detail please. Why is clear aisle access, up in the air, such an urgent necessity at all times? What about the snack carts? Those certainty block the aisles. In an “emergency” whatever that is, what about that scenario. ---
**Author:** ![srzss05](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/898d66/32.png) [@srzss05](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/srzss05)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/318 "2011-06-22T22:19:51Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > Didn’t my response cover both those points?😕 Saying “yes” means nothing, as others have said the same thing earlier and you ignored them, or at best seemed to believe it should just “be”. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/319 "2011-06-22T22:26:45Z")
> [@srzss05](#): > > Saying “yes” means nothing, as others have said the same thing earlier and you ignored them, or at best seemed to believe it should just “be”. HuH? The first point was that the aisle chairs werent designed specifically for me. Uh, no shit. I shouldn’t even respond to that but I will (or I DID). By saying there could be a waiver-form in place for those who don’t need all the additional restraints in place in the chair, I addressed BOTH points. The chair obviously wasn’t made specifically for me, because it DOES feature all of these restraints and belts. Don’t go rushing to the next MENSA meeting. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/320 "2011-06-22T22:33:47Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > No, that’s not what I meant. But at the same time, I believe those that SINCERELY tried to help were in the minority here. But shouldn’t you make a reasonable accommodation for them, whatever their numbers? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244.md?page=17)