# The Problem with Planes **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 21, 2011, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244 "2011-06-21T03:37:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![srzss05](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/898d66/32.png) [@srzss05](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/srzss05)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/321 "2011-06-22T22:41:07Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > HuH? The first point was that the aisle chairs werent designed specifically for me. Uh, no shit. I shouldn’t even respond to that but I will (or I DID). By saying there could be a waiver-form in place for those who don’t need all the additional restraints in place in the chair, I addressed BOTH points. The chair obviously wasn’t made specifically for me, because it DOES feature all of these restraints and belts. Don’t go rushing to the next MENSA meeting. :smack: Obviously, you didn’'t understand the point he was making (or the rest that asked the same thing and you ignored them). I’m outta here, as this is just foolish now. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/322 "2011-06-22T22:45:10Z")
> [@srzss05](#): > > Obviously, you didn’'t understand the point he was making (or the rest that asked the same thing and you ignored them). I’m outta here, as this is just foolish now. bye ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/323 "2011-06-22T22:46:14Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > But shouldn’t you make a reasonable accommodation for them, whatever their numbers? I find this statement ironic. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/324 "2011-06-22T22:49:04Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > I find this statement ironic. Actually it was _sar_donic. Common rookie mistake. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/325 "2011-06-22T22:53:10Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Actually it was _sar_donic. Common rookie mistake. Too funny!!! ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/326 "2011-06-22T22:54:01Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Not the same thing at all. If something goes wrong with the aisle chair or the person occupying it, the entire aisle is blocked, and that is a definite safety issue. The attendants don’t have the time or the expertise to determine which handicapped person is capable of which actions, so to save time and preserve the safety of the other passengers they have developed standard procedures. Now this is truly making a mountain out of a molehill. I think a reasonable person can make a judgment whether someone is correctly buckling a seat belt. I’ll write out the steps for you: (1) Provide whatever assistance is necessary to get someone into the aisle chair. (2) Offer help to buckle them up in the aisle chair. (3) Hi Opal. (4) If they need help, the flight attendant buckles them up. (5) If no, watch them as they buckle up. (6) If they are incapable of buckling up, or they do it incorrectly, refer to step 4. You’re making it out like flight attendants are completely incapable of making any decisions at all, when they are actually quite well trained in dealing with all sorts of emergencies and events onboard. The idea that an individual trained in aircraft cabin safety is completely unable to exercise a small amount of judgment as to whether a passenger is able to buckle a friggin’ seat belt own their own seems to reflect more of a wish of continuing to disagree with the OP, rather than making a rational point. I came here for a debate, not contradiction. (or however that Monty Python quote goes) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/327 "2011-06-22T23:22:52Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > How is it a safety issue? It’s enough that the airline thinks it is. > [@](#): > > Explain this to me in detail please. Why is clear aisle access, up in the air, such an urgent necessity at all times? The airplane gets a warning that severe turbulence is ahead. It is important that everyone return to their seats immediately. Some able-bodied passengers cannot because the guy in the wheelchair is claiming “Don’t push me, I can do it!” or “don’t help me, I can get up myself!” when he’s fallen out of the chair he was not properly strapped to. > [@](#): > > What about the snack carts? Those certainty block the aisles. In an “emergency” whatever that is, what about that scenario. Okay, the flight attendants rapidly push or pull the cart back to its station and park it. There is no chance the cart is going to argue with them about it, or threaten to sue them for it, or be a jerk about it. Fact is, if I have to get back to my seat in a hurry and you’re in my way, I’m going to blame _you_, not the airline. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/328 "2011-06-22T23:27:54Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > I think there should be some way of voluntarily waiving the shoulder and various upper body constraints that the aisle chair features if one so desires. One has to do nothing more than to look at me to see that I am more than capable of securing myself in the seat with a simple over-the-lap seatbelt. There’s a safety problem in this, though. When in an aircraft, in almost any capacity, the checklist is lord and master. Having two different sets of procedures for the same situation increases by a measurable amount the risk that someone who is NOT capable will not be properly fastened–or equally bad, someone with an inflated view of their capabilities will waive additional fastening they need. People in that latter situation have successfully sued before, and they will do so again. > [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > How is it a safety issue? Explain this to me in detail please. Why is clear aisle access, up in the air, such an urgent necessity at all times? Primarily? Flight attendant mobility. If there is sudden turbulence, or a passenger emergency, the flight attendants need to be able to move up and down the aisles rapidly to appropriate places. > [@](#): > > What about the snack carts? Those certainty block the aisles. In an “emergency” whatever that is, what about that scenario. Snack carts do not have 150+lbs of potentially angry disabled person strapped to them. They are light and on wheels, and do not care if you shove them roughly out of your way or bump them into bulkheads. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/329 "2011-06-22T23:58:01Z")
I know we can solve this if we just keep working at it. Would you consider being stashed in cargo? Heavy winter coat, camp toilet, maybe a nice set of dumbbells? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/330 "2011-06-23T00:03:07Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > (a side note: unless it’s a tiny establishment, no places have ONE reg toilet and ONE accessible toilet, its always AT LEAST 2 or 3) Funny - the McDonald’s I was in today only had 1 regular and 1 handicapped stall. The rule is that if there is only one toilet it must be accessible. If there is more than one then at least 1 must be accessible… but there is, in fact, no regulation of how many regular toilets there must be. It can be zero, 1, 2, more… ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/331 "2011-06-23T00:43:37Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Yeah, you look pretty damn buff. > [@Sitnam](#): > > Which is why I’m not really seeing the oppressive humiliation the OP keeps complaining about. Oh, I don’t doubt the OP has to deal with stupid, oppressive crap in his life due to prejudice against the handicapped. I just don’t agree that this issue of aisle chairs is one of those pieces of crap. Clearly, he does. Fact is, he IS more physically able than most wheelchair users, but the issue (as others have noted) is that the aisle is designed as something usable by ALL wheelchair users, not the elite athletes of wheelchair users. Hell, when it comes to something requiring upper body strength he’s probably more able than most “able-bodied” people. What sucks is that what he wants - to be able to get to the toilet on his own - has a pathway designed for _lower_-body ability, which he lacks. Pity he can’t figure out a way to walk down that aisle on his hands, as I presume he has the upper body strength to support his weight - the problem there being getting his legs to balance above him. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/332 "2011-06-23T01:04:45Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > How is it a safety issue? Explain this to me in detail please. Why is clear aisle access, up in the air, such an urgent necessity at all times? What about the snack carts? Those certainty block the aisles. In an “emergency” whatever that is, what about that scenario. Why is over 150 lbs. of dead weight in the aisle a safety issue? _Really?_ BTW, if the airline even considered letting you sign a waiver absolving them of responsibility if you fell off that cart or otherwise had a mishap in the aisle, I would among those protesting such an irresponsible action. You have no right to sign away the rights of others on that flight if you become a hindrance. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/333 "2011-06-23T01:14:42Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Why is over 150 lbs. of dead weight in the aisle a safety issue? > _Really?_ > BTW, if the airline even considered letting you sign a waiver absolving them of responsibility if you fell off that cart or otherwise had a mishap in the aisle, I would among those protesting such an irresponsible action. You have no right to sign away the rights of others on that flight if you become a hindrance. Dead weight? You know absolutely NOTHING about my ability to get myself up and off the ground when and if an accident occurs. I’d put the time it takes at no more than 30 seconds. Are you going for the record for offensive remarks made, DUDE? And secondly, I weigh much less than you are assuming I do. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mean_mr.mustard/32/3865_2.png) [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mean_Mr.Mustard)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/334 "2011-06-23T01:15:48Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > Molehill \>\>\> Mountain > > Honest to god, were it me I would simply slap on a Depends for the flight, then clean up in the airport restroom. > mmm > [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > Oh how easy it is to type those words. Why is this not a viable alternative? Thousands of folks use Depends/diapers (including astronauts); it is a legitimate product. mmm ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/335 "2011-06-23T01:19:45Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Why is over 150 lbs. of dead weight in the aisle a safety issue? > _Really?_ > BTW, if the airline even considered letting you sign a waiver absolving them of responsibility if you fell off that cart or otherwise had a mishap in the aisle, I would among those protesting such an irresponsible action. You have no right to sign away the rights of others on that flight if you become a hindrance. And you really are just trying to be difficult. I really believe that. Being seated on an aisle chair, with an over-the-lap seatbelt securing me in the seat, in the close confines of an airplane aisle, I cannot even IMAGINE the circumstances which could result in KNOCKING ME out of the chair. BUT, even if that WERE the case, I’d be back in that chair in seconds. And you’d be UNAFFECTED, and you could go to your STAR TREK convention just like you planned with no inconvenience. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/336 "2011-06-23T01:23:08Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > Why is this not a viable alternative? Thousands of folks use Depends/diapers (including astronauts); it is a legitimate product. > > mmm Well, I’m not going to space and I’m not a geriatric. What demographic do you think makes up those “thousands of folks” that use them? Do you use them? I’m not wearing a fucking diaper. But thanks for the tip. Why don’t u use them? ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/337 "2011-06-23T01:23:58Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > I’d put the time it takes at no more than 30 seconds. So in other words, and this is just the plain fact, anywhere from 3x to 6x as long as it would take an able-bodied person? How much slower than you would a typical paraplegic be, do you think? Remember, for aircraft weight considerations, we have space for one solution on most jets. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/338 "2011-06-23T01:25:16Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > And you really are just trying to be difficult. I really believe that. Being seated on an aisle chair, with an over-the-lap seatbelt securing me in the seat, in the close confines of an airplane aisle, I cannot even IMAGINE the circumstances which could result in KNOCKING ME out of the chair. Well, GOOD because if YOU were knocked OUT of the chair, thirty SECONDS is THIRTY seconds too long FOR you to get back IN the chair during AN ongoing problem. So wear the strap like a good passenger and shaddup. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/339 "2011-06-23T01:25:24Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > I know we can solve this if we just keep working at it. Would you consider being stashed in cargo? Heavy winter coat, camp toilet, maybe a nice set of dumbbells? Haarty=hargh=harh=hargh! I didn’t realize there were so many unfound comedians out there! ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/340 "2011-06-23T01:27:29Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, GOOD because if YOU were knocked OUT of the chair, thirty SECONDS is THIRTY seconds too long FOR you to get back IN the chair during AN ongoing problem. > So wear the strap like a good passenger and shaddup. You are effin ridiculous, how long do you think it would take for the attendant to move the drink cart down the length of the aisle? Or the old lady who is hobbling down the aisle to get to her seat? Huh? I’d say longer than 30 seconds. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244.md?page=18)