# The Problem with Planes **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 21, 2011, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244 "2011-06-21T03:37:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/61 "2011-06-21T18:56:23Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > I’m not asking for a “perfect” accomodation. I’m asking for an accomodation that keeps my dignity and autonomy intact. I have the RIGHT to that. _None_ of us have a right to that. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/62 "2011-06-21T18:56:45Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Why not request to be seated right next to the lavatory? Then when you had to go, the attendants could just physically lift you in and out of the john without having to use the aisle chair, and many fewer people would be aware of your difficulties. When an option, I do. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/63 "2011-06-21T18:57:50Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > _None_ of us have a right to that. But everyone HAS that except for those in my boat. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/64 "2011-06-21T19:02:25Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > But everyone HAS that except for those in my boat. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/65 "2011-06-21T19:02:41Z")
[quote=“Czarcasm, post:60, topic:586244”] Is it not true?[/QUOT adjective 1. not well; weak and sickly; infirm 2. of or for invalids: an invalid home Origin: Fr invalide \< L invalidus, feeble: see in- & valid noun a weak, sickly person; NO, it’s NOT true 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/66 "2011-06-21T19:05:04Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > I’m speechless. If you’re not incapacitated, why don’t you just walk down the aisle like everybody else? If you are incapacitated, you need to accept that you are not capable of doing everything for yourself that you want to do. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/67 "2011-06-21T19:06:35Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > It’s not just about you and what you want. A disabled person wallowing about on the floor is a safety hazard and serious inconvenience for everybody else on the plane. If there’s an emergency, how long is it going to take you to drag yourself back to your seat? If you become incapacitated (if something were to fall out of one of the bins and land on you, for example) - are the flight attendants supposed to be able to lift you back into your seat? If you had a motorized aisle seat and fell out of if because you weren’t wearing your seat belt - would you be able to lift yourself if you hurt your arms falling? > > You want to be autonomous? Well part of that is understanding that sometimes you need to cooperate with other people if you want to get anywhere. Another part of being autonomous is being responsible for yourself: making sure you don’t block the aisle, making sure you’re not placing an extra burden on the flight attendants, making sure that you’re following safety standards. > > Sometimes being an autonomous adult means sucking it up so that you make life easier (and safer) for other people. Hey buddy, if I’m capable I’m doing it. I’d like there to be a better alternative available but there isn’t. The current system in place is not acceptable to me. I make no apologies for my actions. None. I refuse to be publically humiliated. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/68 "2011-06-21T19:08:48Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > adjective > > 1. not well; weak and sickly; infirm > 2. of or for invalids: an invalid home > > Origin: Fr invalide \< L invalidus, feeble: see in- & valid > noun > > a weak, sickly person; > > NO, it’s NOT true 😉 **invalid** _n._ One who is incapacitated by a chronic illness or disability. _adj._ 1. Incapacitated by illness or injury. _adj_ suffering from or disabled by injury… . ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/69 "2011-06-21T19:08:53Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Why not request to be seated right next to the lavatory? Then when you had to go, the attendants could just physically lift you in and out of the john without having to use the aisle chair, and many fewer people would be aware of your difficulties. “The attendants could just physically lift you in and out of the john” Are you kidding me??? No that is unacceptable im sorry. Im not a 3yr old. I am a grown man, I don’t get picked up out of my seat and carried ANYWHERE. Just like YOU don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/70 "2011-06-21T19:09:06Z")
I’m really not getting what is making the OP so upset here. It sounds like reasonable accomodations to me. If a flight attendant has to bring the chair to you anyway, why is it so much more humiliating to be pushed rather than, say, pushing a button to bring yourself? Moreso, what happens if there’s turbulence? Someone walking can brace themselves on a seat next to them and may at worst fall down. You’re on wheels, your worst case is rolling uncontrollably down the aisle. That’s quite a huge difference. I think being strapped in helps control for that case. Moreso, some pushing you can probably more safely keep you from rolling down the aisle by pulling you onto your back than you probably could on your own. Either way, your rights don’t include what you seem to think they do, you have a right to access and reasonable accomodations. Reasonable does not mean ideal, and it sounds like you’d only be happy with an ideal situation. However, given the circumstances, it sounds like it’s the most reasonable accomodation because your personal humiliation simply doesn’t out-weigh the airline’s need to maximize space usage, muchless the safety of every other passenger on the plane. And you can also take some steps on your own too. Hell, I avoid plane bathrooms myself simply because they’re cramped, gross, and there’s usually a line. Obviously, that’s not an option on a 5-6 hour flight, but there’s other alternatives too. For instance, there’s those sort of self-cath kits designed for sporting events; I imagine they’re really uncomfortable, but you wouldn’t have to ask for assistance. And when I know I’m going to be in a situation where a restroom simply isn’t going to be convenient, like a long concert, I usually make an effort to minimize my liquid intake that day, and I have definitely gone at least 5-6 hours without needing to use the bathroom, just make sure to rehydrate ASAP. Either way, I think the only think unreasonable here are the expectations of the OP. Frankly, I think you need to either not fly, make some accomodations on your own, or just suck it up. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/71 "2011-06-21T19:12:29Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > There’s not a whole lot of human dignity being honored by the airline industry anymore, whether your legs work or not. > > That said, “grown man stubbornly insists on scooting down the aisle on his butt” looks a whole lot less dignified than “grown man needs a push in his wheelchair.” Except “grown man needs a push in his wheelchair” is NOT an accurate description of what I would be going through. Not at all. “Grown man is subjected to being tied down to desk stool and paraded up and down plane” is more on target. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/72 "2011-06-21T19:14:14Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > Hey buddy, if I’m capable I’m doing it. I’d like there to be a better alternative available but there isn’t. The current system in place is not acceptable to me. I make no apologies for my actions. None. I refuse to be publicly humiliated. No one has the right to force the world to accommodate to their personal sense of self-respect. You think you’d have more self-respect scooting on your ass down the aisle than by having someone safely escort you via chair to the bathroom, but you have _got_ to realize that by insisting on this you would violate the self-respect of the next wheeled warrior who would feel utterly humiliated if forced to slide his ass on the ground in front of other passengers. Who the hell are you to dictate that everyone’s sense of self-respect conform with your own? ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/73 "2011-06-21T19:16:43Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > Jamie, I am sympathetic to your situation. But you do not have the right to demand that everyone else bow to your whims because you’re disabled. > > The airlines are legally required to provide you with a reasonable accommodation for accessing the restroom in flight. They have done so. But in doing so, they must take various factors into account. Your approval of every aspect of the process is not the only factor involved. > > Flying sucks for everybody. Being disabled does not entitle you to demand that it not suck for you, as well. > > Also, I’m sure the “strapping into the aisle chair” that you detest so much is a necessary safety procedure. I get the sense that, if the airline had an aisle chair without any straps and the plane hit a spot of turbulence, hurling you across the cabin and injuring you, you would be just as vocal in suing them for not providing the proper safety equipment that your disability requires. > > Your posts on here make you sound like the Al Sharpton of disabled people. “Flying sucks for everybody. Being disabled does not entitle you to demand that it not suck for you, as well.” EXACTLY! I just want it to suck FOR ME just like it sucks for EVERYONE ELSE. Not any less. Can’t you see that? Flying, even if I had satisfactory bathroom access, would still “suck”. It would just “suck” along the same lines as it did for YOU. “Everyone else bow to my whims”?? SMH. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/74 "2011-06-21T19:18:24Z")
Since the OP will not be satisfied unless things are exactly as he wants them to be, [here’s a solution](http://www.controller.com/list/list.aspx?ETID=1&setype=1&catid=3&Manu=CESSNA). ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/75 "2011-06-21T19:20:56Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > No one has the right to force the world to accommodate to their personal sense of self-respect. You think you’d have more self-respect scooting on your ass down the aisle than by having someone safely escort you via chair to the bathroom, but you have _got_ to realize that by insisting on this you would violate the self-respect of the next wheeled warrior who would feel utterly humiliated if forced to slide his ass on the ground in front of other passengers. Who the hell are you to dictate that everyone’s sense of self-respect conform with your own? Did I ever suggest that this “butt scooting” method that I have employed in the past should be the official recognized form of bathroom transport for all wheelchair users on flights? NO. And I have said earlier in this thread, I don’t think too many other wheelchair users even USE the facilities on flights, due to using catheters. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/76 "2011-06-21T19:27:31Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > A lot of them do. They also have those bumps that identify the curb. Those accomodations seem to be becoming more popular, but I don’t know much about the applicable laws. I have to say I’m a little surprised at the reception **jamiemcgarry** is getting here. It’s not hard to understand why a wheelchair user might find it embarrassing or annoying to be strapped into a chair and pushed to the bathroom by a flight attedant. Saying it’s “subhuman” is over the top and I can see his tone (?) is not winning him any admirers, but I can see this as something that would be pretty aggravating. I don’t know how feasible the improvements are but I don’t know that they’re impossible. This ain’t MPSIMS and he didn’t come here to get sympathy. This is GD and he came here to demand to be accomodated. > [@kayaker](#): > > I am 53 years old, do not use a wheelchair, and have flown 2 or 3 times a year since I was 18 or so. I’ve never been in an airplanes’ restroom. Have most people?(serious question) Pfsh. If you’ve seen the places I’ve slept/ate/peed, you’d agree that an airplane isn’t all that bad. > [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > I’m not asking for a “perfect” accomodation. I’m asking for an accomodation that keeps my dignity and autonomy intact. I have the RIGHT to that. No, you don’t have a right to either dignity or autonomy. You just made that up because you’re pissed off that you have to be pushed in a chair. You don’t have a problem with the airlines, you have a problem with your own lack of ability. You’re embarrassed about being pushed in a chair and for some reason, you think others will agree with that nonsense. This thread is proof that you can be both disabled _and_ entitled. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/77 "2011-06-21T19:34:48Z")
It is clear that I have failed in communicating the clear wrongs that exist on airplane flights regarding handicap accessibility. I have tried to make my case but it is falling on deaf ears. Many ppl seem to think I am being “unreasonable” in wanting what I want or that I am demanding things be “perfect” for me. This is so out-of-line it’s humorous. I guess the only REAL way to ever understand certain things is to live through them yourself. I am not just “complaining” here on this discussion board. Advocacy for the rights of the disabled is one of the most important things IN MY LIFE. By no means is it limited to issues surrounding flights. I am just talking about it here, too, so that THAT many more people will begin engaging in the discussion as well. I am a 31 yr old man who has been paralyzed for the past 11yrs. I live alone. I am a competitive bodybuilder. I am NOT an invalid. Usually, when I fly, it is for a bodybuilding competition. Part of a bb-competition pre-contest diet included super-hydration with water. This means drinking 2-2.5 gallons of water per day. When you are drinking this much water, it doesn’t matter if you empty your bladder RIGHT BEFORE the flight or not. You WILL need to use the plane’s bathroom. And I have full sensation in my body as well and the idea of even temporarily using a catheter (sticking a tube down my urethra into my bladder to drain it) makes me CRINGE. Im not asking for “special treatment” or extra stuff on a flight. I am asking for a similar flight experience of that of my able-bodied peers (who didn’t pay any more money for their ticket than I did). Im sorry for all the misunderstanding that this thread has caused. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/78 "2011-06-21T19:35:46Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > Except “grown man needs a push in his wheelchair” is NOT an accurate description of what I would be going through. Not at all. “Grown man is subjected to being tied down to desk stool and paraded up and down plane” is more on target. I’m sorry, I missed the part where they threw confetti, honked horns, and took you somewhere other than directly to the bathroom. In what respect are you paraded? I mean other than in your own fevered imaginings? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/79 "2011-06-21T19:38:17Z")
You seem to want a chair that will detach itself from the row and travel down the aisle to the bathroom, and this chair will also somehow put you on the toilet so you won’t have to be carried by the attendant. Putting aside inventing your magic chair, I see a couple of problems(at the very least) here. 1. Try to remember that the bathrooms are usually in the back of the plane, so your chair will have to be short enough and slim enough to turn around in that narrow aisle. Such a chair would be uncomfortably small. 2. To preserve your dignity the size of the bathroom will have to be increased to accommodate both the toilet _and_ your magic chair. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/80 "2011-06-21T19:44:23Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You seem to want a chair that will detach itself from the row and travel down the aisle to the bathroom, and this chair will also somehow put you on the toilet so you won’t have to be carried by the attendant. Putting aside inventing your magic chair, I see a couple of problems(at the very least) here. > > 1. Try to remember that the bathrooms are usually in the back of the plane, so your chair will have to be short enough and slim enough to turn around in that narrow aisle. Such a chair would be uncomfortably small. > 2. To preserve your dignity the size of the bathroom will have to be increased to accommodate both the toilet _and_ your magic chair. Ok, in no circumstances EVER am I in a situation where I need to be picked up or carried by ANYONE. I can get myself to any toilet, aisle chair or not. And I don’t have any issue with the aisle chair being brought to me from some storage area, that is perfectly fine. I just want to be able to use it independently once im in it. Obviously, the chair (no matter how it was designed) wouldn’t fit inside the bathroom. I would (and do) transfer from the chair into the small restroom toilet. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244.md?page=5)