# The Problem with Planes **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 21, 2011, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244 "2011-06-21T03:37:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/81 "2011-06-21T19:46:06Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > I’m sorry, I missed the part where they threw confetti, honked horns, and took you somewhere other than directly to the bathroom. In what respect are you paraded? > > I mean other than in your own fevered imaginings? I used that term to give light to the public spectacle that the process entails. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/82 "2011-06-21T19:48:14Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > Hey buddy, if I’m capable I’m doing it. I’d like there to be a better alternative available but there isn’t. The current system in place is not acceptable to me. I make no apologies for my actions. None. I refuse to be publically humiliated. The “better alternative” is to stop being a safety hazard and inconvenience for everyone else on the plane while patting yourself on the back for being so dignified as you crawl across the floor. The “better alternative” would be to realize that flying is difficult for everyone. The “better alternatvie” would be to work with the people who are on your flight to make it as tolerable and safe as possible _for everyone_. What you’re doing is not autonomy - it’s childishness. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/83 "2011-06-21T19:50:02Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > “Flying sucks for everybody. Being disabled does not entitle you to demand that it not suck for you, as well.” EXACTLY! I just want it to suck FOR ME just like it sucks for EVERYONE ELSE. Not any less. Can’t you see that? Flying, even if I had satisfactory bathroom access, would still “suck”. It would just “suck” along the same lines as it did for YOU. “Everyone else bow to my whims”?? SMH. The airline has made accommodations for your needs. I don’t understand how you think it’s humiliating that you need to meet the same standards of safety everybody else conforms to based on your condition. Aircraft are subject to clear air turbulence which cannot be predicted by the pilot. Your trip to the bathroom means you are away from your seat and incapable of dealing with turbulence in a timely manner. If you don’t like the safety measures set up to deal with your disability then use a product designed specifically for people who need assistance between bathroom visits. ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/84 "2011-06-21T19:52:29Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > EXACTLY! I just want it to suck FOR ME just like it sucks for EVERYONE ELSE. Not any less. Can’t you see that? Flying, even if I had satisfactory bathroom access, would still “suck”. It would just “suck” along the same lines as it did for YOU. “Everyone else bow to my whims”?? SMH. Disability law requires that companies make reasonable accommodations to allow disabled customers to use their services. “Reasonable accommodations” does not require that they spare you from _any_ inconvenience, embarrassment, aggravation or unhappiness related to your disability. They are required to make flying _accessible_ to you. They are not required to make flying pleasant, or even as pleasant as it is for able-bodied people. They are simply required to make flying reasonably possible. And by the way - I was once partially paralyzed due to side effects from anaesthesia and had to be catheterized. It wasn’t that bad. Given the circumstances at the time, it was nice to not have to get up to piss. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/85 "2011-06-21T19:52:34Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > Ok, in no circumstances EVER am I in a situation where I need to be picked up or carried by ANYONE. I can get myself to any toilet, aisle chair or not. And I don’t have any issue with the aisle chair being brought to me from some storage area, that is perfectly fine. I just want to be able to use it independently once im in it. Obviously, the chair (no matter how it was designed) wouldn’t fit inside the bathroom. I would (and do) transfer from the chair into the small restroom toilet. The attendants will still have to be there to make sure that you are properly secured to the chair, for the same reason they make sure all the other passengers are secure in _their_ seats. Since time is of the essence because they need to keep that aisle clear as much as possible, can you put yourself into that chair and secure yourself _by_ yourself faster than they can? Do you know how to properly secure yourself on that device? Most importantly, do they have any possible way of knowing the answers to these questions ahead of time? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/86 "2011-06-21T19:52:57Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > I’m speechless. No evidence of that in THIS thread. 😛 Given that you feel free to accuse others of “ignorance,” “apathy” and several other terms implying a moral or intellectual deficiency, getting “speechless” over a word that simply describes a physical condition with no prejudice, (although the word may be out of fashion at this time), is simply going to reinforce the view that you actually feel entitled to some sort of special treatment. You would be better off sticking to the topic, itself. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/87 "2011-06-21T19:53:05Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > I just want to be able to use it independently once im in it. Given: The aisles in commercial airplanes are too narrow for a standard wheelchair, and are too narrow for the aisle chairs to be fitted with wheels that can be operated by the occupant. Given: The airframe cannot be widened. The only way to get wider aisles that will accommodate an occupant-operated wheelchair is to remove seats. Do you think that it is a ‘reasonable accommodation’ for every airline to remove an aisle of seats on all of their aircraft in order to accommodate people in wheelchairs? ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/88 "2011-06-21T19:53:30Z")
I sympathise with the fact that this is not an enjoyable experience for you. I do not see a practical alternative to the aisle chairs currently in use. I do not accept that there is anything unfair or humiliating about the current procedure, provided both the flight attendants and your fellow passengers are respectful. I doubt this would be a major issue for most wheelchair users. Disabled rights are an important issue, but I don’t think you are being realistic here. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/89 "2011-06-21T19:56:41Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > The “better alternative” is to stop being a safety hazard and inconvenience for everyone else on the plane while patting yourself on the back for being so dignified as you crawl across the floor. The “better alternative” would be to realize that flying is difficult for everyone. The “better alternatvie” would be to work with the people who are on your flight to make it as tolerable and safe as possible _for everyone_. > > What you’re doing is not autonomy - it’s childishness. I know, I know, I’m being entitled. I should just accept the fact that I’m handicapped and deal with all the hardships such a life brings about. So I should just keep my mouth shut and put up with the invalid treatment? What is the “better alternative” in your wise opinion? NEITHER situation is ideal (going on the floor or doing the aisle chair) but I have to make the call of which situation I can live with. YOU arent’ the one in the situation. So it’s very easy for you to call it “childishness”. Im not “patting myself on the back”. I dont like crawling on the floor. Not at all. But I AM who I AM. And I am NOT someone who is willing to be subjected to such treatment. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/90 "2011-06-21T19:58:39Z")
> [@Alka\_Seltzer](#): > > I sympathise with the fact that this is not an enjoyable experience for you. I do not see a practical alternative to the aisle chairs currently in use. I do not accept that there is anything unfair or humiliating about the current procedure, provided both the flight attendants and your fellow passengers are respectful. I doubt this would be a major issue for most wheelchair users. > > Disabled rights are an important issue, but I don’t think you are being realistic here. Would you have a problem undergoing this process yourself? And AGAIN, most wheelchair users DONT EVEN USE THE RESTROOM on flights! ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/91 "2011-06-21T20:01:23Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Given: The aisles in commercial airplanes are too narrow for a standard wheelchair, and are too narrow for the aisle chairs to be fitted with wheels that can be operated by the occupant. > > Given: The airframe cannot be widened. The only way to get wider aisles that will accommodate an occupant-operated wheelchair is to remove seats. > > Do you think that it is a ‘reasonable accommodation’ for every airline to remove an aisle of seats on all of their aircraft in order to accommodate people in wheelchairs? Perhaps there is a way of making the aisle chairs independently mobile other than fitting them with large outer wheels that are pushed by the user? And another fuzzy area here is the legal definition of “reasonable”. Who determines what “reasonable” is? ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/92 "2011-06-21T20:02:56Z")
Let’s all remember this is the same **jamiemcgarry** who thinks that, because he’s disabled, it’s a violation of basic human equality to make him wait for a bathroom stall at all. From [Handicapped: Ok or No Way? - In My Humble Opinion - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=475562) > [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > All we (those who depend on the availablitly of the accessible stalls) “desire” is the right to the same access to public restroom facilities as our able-bodied counterparts. When someone “desires” convenience and selects the accessible stall over the regular stall, that right is taken away. It’s not about the length of the wait, it’s about the fact that the wait is occuring in the first place. It’s not a wait borne out of necessity; rather it’s one borne out of selfishness and apathy. It’s about basic human equality. So please know, you are in fact committing a wrong each and every time you choose to use the handicap-accessible stall when a non-accessible toilet is available. There’s no point in arguing with someone with this attitude. He wants a good 30% of the floor space in every multi-user bathroom in the world to go unused, solely so that if he happens to stop by any given bathroom he doesn’t have to wait for an able-bodied person to finish using the handicapped stall. So much for not wanting special treatment. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/93 "2011-06-21T20:05:00Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > This ain’t MPSIMS and he didn’t come here to get sympathy. This is GD and he came here to demand to be accomodated. Actually, he posted this in MPSIMS, although the nature of the discussion resulted in it being moved to this forum. > [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > It is clear that I have failed in communicating the clear wrongs that exist on airplane flights regarding handicap accessibility. I would agree with this, but not for a reason with which you would agree. Had you gone to the BBQ Pit and simply vented that the accommodations accorded you by the airlines were frustrating, you might have garnered some sympathy. Had you gone to MPSIMS or IMHO and simply asked whether anyone could suggest a better solution to the situation you face, you might have gotten some helpful responses. By going into MPSIMS and posting a rant, then ignoring every possible response provided you and lashing out at your correspondents, you managed alienate your audience when you might have had them all on your side. From your description, there do not appear to be any actual “clear wrongs that exist on airplane fights.” Instead, there appear to be various situations that present difficult choices to be made to juggle safety, cost, and access, at least one of which you find discomforting. (And placing your purported “dignity” ahead of the safety of other passengers goes a long way toward diminishing your arguments.) I hope you find a solutiuon with which you can live, but I am not holding my breath thinking you will agree with it even then. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/94 "2011-06-21T20:05:45Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > I know, I know, I’m being entitled. I should just accept the fact that I’m handicapped and deal with all the hardships such a life brings about. So I should just keep my mouth shut and put up with the invalid treatment? What is the “better alternative” in your wise opinion? NEITHER situation is ideal (going on the floor or doing the aisle chair) but I have to make the call of which situation I can live with. YOU arent’ the one in the situation. So it’s very easy for you to call it “childishness”. Im not “patting myself on the back”. I dont like crawling on the floor. Not at all. But I AM who I AM. And I am NOT someone who is willing to be subjected to such treatment. Not too many years ago I was an invalid to a greater extent than you are now, and I had people subject me to that exact same kind of treatment while traveling. To all those who treated me thus, I have this to say: From the bottom of my heart, thank you. You went above and beyond, always with gentle hands and gentle smiles, and every day I strive to repay that karmic debt. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/95 "2011-06-21T20:07:29Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Actually, he posted this in MPSIMS, although the nature of the discussion resulted in it being moved to this forum. > > I would agree with this, but not for a reason with which you would agree. > > Had you gone to the BBQ Pit and simply vented that the accommodations accorded you by the airlines were frustrating, you might have garnered some sympathy. > > Had you gone to MPSIMS or IMHO and simply asked whether anyone could suggest a better solution to the situation you face, you might have gotten some helpful responses. > > By going into MPSIMS and posting a rant, then ignoring every possible response provided you and lashing out at your correspondents, you managed alienate your audience when you might have had them all on your side. > > From your description, there do not appear to be any actual “clear wrongs that exist on airplane fights.” Instead, there appear to be various situations that present difficult choices to be made to juggle safety, cost, and access, at least one of which you find discomforting. (And placing your purported “dignity” ahead of the safety of other passengers goes a long way toward diminishing your arguments.) > > I hope you find a solutiuon with which you can live, but I am not holding my breath thinking you will agree with it even then. WHat “possible responses” did I ignore? ---
**Author:** ![Motorgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e36b37/32.png) [@Motorgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Motorgirl)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/96 "2011-06-21T20:07:55Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > I used that term to give light to the public spectacle that the process entails. Is receiving help from the flight attendant in being secured to the aisle chair more of a spectacle than you dragging yourself down the aisle of the plane? I know which one I would find weirder and more attention-drawing. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/97 "2011-06-21T20:07:59Z")
ENOUGH with the insults. (This goes for everyone.) No more comments about childishness, ignorance, selfishness, apathy, or any of the other loaded terms that have been bandied about. Take that stuff to **The BBQ Pit**. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/98 "2011-06-21T20:09:29Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Actually, he posted this in MPSIMS, although the nature of the discussion resulted in it being moved to this forum. > > I would agree with this, but not for a reason with which you would agree. > > Had you gone to the BBQ Pit and simply vented that the accommodations accorded you by the airlines were frustrating, you might have garnered some sympathy. > > Had you gone to MPSIMS or IMHO and simply asked whether anyone could suggest a better solution to the situation you face, you might have gotten some helpful responses. > > By going into MPSIMS and posting a rant, then ignoring every possible response provided you and lashing out at your correspondents, you managed alienate your audience when you might have had them all on your side. > > From your description, there do not appear to be any actual “clear wrongs that exist on airplane fights.” Instead, there appear to be various situations that present difficult choices to be made to juggle safety, cost, and access, at least one of which you find discomforting. (And placing your purported “dignity” ahead of the safety of other passengers goes a long way toward diminishing your arguments.) > > I hope you find a solutiuon with which you can live, but I am not holding my breath thinking you will agree with it even then. And if I were REALLY putting myself ahead of the safety of the rest of the passengers, do you think the airline would allow me to do what I do? I doubt it. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/99 "2011-06-21T20:13:44Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > Perhaps there is a way of making the aisle chairs independently mobile other than fitting them with large outer wheels that are pushed by the user? Perhaps there is, perhaps there isn’t. The airlines can only purchase equipment that is available. I suggest you would be better served if you contacted the aisle chair manufacturers, rather than to rant against airlines who cannot buy something that doesn’t exist. > [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > And another fuzzy area here is the legal definition of “reasonable”. Who determines what “reasonable” is? I didn’t ask the legal definition. I asked whether you think the only currently-available option is reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/100 "2011-06-21T20:14:13Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > And if I were REALLY putting myself ahead of the safety of the rest of the passengers, do you think the airline would allow me to do what I do? I doubt it. One example: crawling or butt-shuffling down the aisle creates a blockage that endangers others in an emergency. I suspect that you have been permitted to do so only because the flight personnel were too surprised to react–particularly if it appeared that it would require them to lift you, struggling against them, to get you to the rest room or your seat. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244.md?page=6)