# The Problem with Planes **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 21, 2011, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244 "2011-06-21T03:37:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![silk1976](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@silk1976](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silk1976)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/141 "2011-06-21T21:23:00Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > I have, in fact, met multiple examples of each of those situations, but you’re the first person I’ve ever even heard of being offended by being required to be pushed down the aisle. How many others do you know who is so offended by these circumstances? AFAICT, the vast majority simply don’t care, they accept it as a necessary part of their disability. This reminds me of the overall mental shift that usually allows people to transcend an embarassing experience - for example, speaking in public. Once the person realizes that everyone else simply _doesn’t care_, all the imagined focus on that person is removed. In other words, everyone else on the plane sees something a little strange going on, then sees that someone is being wheeled down the aisle. Everyone’s thought process is ‘oh, someone is handicapped, travelling must be tough for them.’ Then they go back to what they were doing, not spending a 2nd thought on the incident again. If the plane were empty (or the room empty in the public speaking example), the embarassment would be nil. So - since everyone else moves on from the experience 2 seconds after it happens, any lingering embarassment for the person is self-maintained. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/142 "2011-06-21T21:26:54Z")
> [@silk1976](#): > > This reminds me of the overall mental shift that usually allows people to transcend an embarassing experience - for example, speaking in public. Once the person realizes that everyone else simply _doesn’t care_, all the imagined focus on that person is removed. In other words, everyone else on the plane sees something a little strange going on, then sees that someone is being wheeled down the aisle. Everyone’s thought process is ‘oh, someone is handicapped, travelling must be tough for them.’ Then they go back to what they were doing, not spending a 2nd thought on the incident again. If the plane were empty (or the room empty in the public speaking example), the embarassment would be nil. So - since everyone else moves on from the experience 2 seconds after it happens, any lingering embarassment for the person is self-maintained. It’s not about what other ppl may or may not be thinking. Jesus Christ. And it’s NOT the simple act of being pushed that I can’t tolerate. Do you ppl read? ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/143 "2011-06-21T21:26:58Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > Ok, but you have NEVER dealt with anything approaching the “inconvenience” of the “aisle chair” experience. Okay, _THIS_ right here is serious, self-entitled BS. Do you _really_ believe that no one here, just because they’re not handicapped, hasn’t faced humiliating circumstances of their own? Do you _really_ think your circumstances are that special and unique? Do you _really_ think that your inconvenience is that much of a travesty? This is the kind of statement that completely demonstrates your utter lack of perspective on the world and the situations that everyone else goes through. Being disabled sucks, and it carries some crappy baggage along with it, but the fact that you CAN fly, even with enormous hassle, still puts you way ahead of some other individuals, like the woman with MS mentioned upthread. In short, you’ll never make any traction on this because your perspective of your own situation, much less the situations of others is so completely out of the realm of reality, that I don’t think we can possible reach a point of reason. So, I’m giving up on this one. ---
**Author:** ![silk1976](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@silk1976](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silk1976)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/144 "2011-06-21T21:27:30Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > That isn’t always an option and you know this. Sometimes air travel is unavoidable. Sure, it is always an option. Thats not to say the alternative doesn’t suck worse, but it’s an option. All a matter of priorities. The only time air travel is unavoidable is in a life or death situation, where a person might die without it. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/145 "2011-06-21T21:33:28Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > Okay, _THIS_ right here is serious, self-entitled BS. Do you _really_ believe that no one here, just because they’re not handicapped, hasn’t faced humiliating circumstances of their own? Do you _really_ think your circumstances are that special and unique? Do you _really_ think that your inconvenience is that much of a travesty? This is the kind of statement that completely demonstrates your utter lack of perspective on the world and the situations that everyone else goes through. Being disabled sucks, and it carries some crappy baggage along with it, but the fact that you CAN fly, even with enormous hassle, still puts you way ahead of some other individuals, like the woman with MS mentioned upthread. > > In short, you’ll never make any traction on this because your perspective of your own situation, much less the situations of others is so completely out of the realm of reality, that I don’t think we can possible reach a point of reason. So, I’m giving up on this one. You are reading what you want from my postings . I nver even implied that my humiliating dealings with airplanes were somehow above and beyond any and all humiliation anyone else ever experiences. Where in the freakin world did you get that from?! You said we all deal with inconveniences on the airline, I simply said well not like THIS you don’t. I don’t even know how to respond to you here. If anything, it allows me to appreciate others’ suffering and humiliation better. If you have endured similar, even more humiliating experiences at the hands of airlines; PLEASE, let me know here. THEN your post might be appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/146 "2011-06-21T21:35:03Z")
> [@silk1976](#): > > Sure, it is always an option. Thats not to say the alternative doesn’t suck worse, but it’s an option. All a matter of priorities. > > The only time air travel is unavoidable is in a life or death situation, where a person might die without it. Ok, clarification; REALISTIC option. I’m not about to drive from Michigan to California or take a boat to Europe. REALISTIC. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/147 "2011-06-21T21:37:56Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > . . . the next time you fling yourself on the floor in a snit like a little baby, . . . is in direct violation of the instructions I already posted: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=13941438#post13941438](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=13941438#post13941438) This is a Warning to avoid any more of that behavior in this thread. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/148 "2011-06-21T21:40:53Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > Save the luxurious, relaxing dumps for the ones you take at home. We’re talking about public toilets here. I have the right to the access to usable toilets just like you do. And when you CHOOSE that stall when others are available to you, that access is compromised. I will and do wait, just like everyone does, when ALL THE STALLS ARE OCCUPIED. THAT is a fact of life. HANDICAP-ACCESSIBLE STALLS ARE STALLS OF NECESSITY. PERIOD. THis is not unfair, this is not “special treatment” for the disabled, this is leveling the playing field (and not even that really). Again, you want other people to inconvenience themselves so that you do not have to wait. I can see how it is aggravating and frustrating to you, just like I can see how the aisle chair must be aggravating and frustrating, but your disability does not give you the right to demand not to be aggravated and frustrated. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/149 "2011-06-21T21:44:48Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > Again, you want other people to inconvenience themselves so that you do not have to wait. > > I can see how it is aggravating and frustrating to you, just like I can see how the aisle chair must be aggravating and frustrating, but your disability does not give you the right to demand not to be aggravated and frustrated. I can’t believe this. No, but it does give me the right to demand the same access to toilets as YOU. I shouldn’t have to wait unless another handicapped individual is using the stall or every other stall is full. THAT is the only time YOU would have to wait, so why should I have to wait in those instances AS WELL AS all the instances where someone (like you) wanted the “convenience” of the big, roomy accessible stall? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/150 "2011-06-21T21:52:37Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > I can’t believe this. No, but it does give me the right to demand the same access to toilets as YOU. And in an airplane, you do. Unless you fly what I fly. Then you have to wait until you land. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/151 "2011-06-21T21:56:57Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > My guess is that the OP will indeed never fly on an airliner again, because TPTB will determine that it is too expensive to redesign the planes to accommodate wheelchair bound adults. > > It’s certainly possible to do so, though it may mean compromising some safety requirements for handicapped passengers. I though about buckling wheelchairs to the floors or side walls like the systems on some city buses. but what about seat belts? I’ve never seen a wheelchair with a seat belt. > > Also, at one point the OP claims to be an autonomous passenger who should be allowed to use the facilities without assistance. At another point the OP says he’s “completely paralyzed”. Is there not a contradiction here? What am I missing? Dude I live alone. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/152 "2011-06-21T21:58:48Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > My guess is that the OP will indeed never fly on an airliner again, because TPTB will determine that it is too expensive to redesign the planes to accommodate wheelchair bound adults. > > It’s certainly possible to do so, though it may mean compromising some safety requirements for handicapped passengers. I though about buckling wheelchairs to the floors or side walls like the systems on some city buses. but what about seat belts? I’ve never seen a wheelchair with a seat belt. > > Also, at one point the OP claims to be an autonomous passenger who should be allowed to use the facilities without assistance. At another point the OP says he’s “completely paralyzed”. Is there not a contradiction here? What am I missing? Dude I live alone. And obviously, I would still be utilizing some form(s) of assistance, even if I used a modified aisle chair which was able to be self-propelled. I said I wanted to be able to take myself to and from the restroom on my own. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/153 "2011-06-21T22:01:29Z")
> [@Markxxx](#): > > When things like this in life happen, you have a choice, you can come on a forum and complain to a bunch of people who can’t do anythig to enact a change or you can actually DO something about it. > > Since I am sure most people would agree with you in principle, I hope you take the time to do more than just complain about it here. You have congressman to write, you could form local organizations, you could write to, airplane manufacturers, and even the airlines themselves. While it’s true they only buy the planes, they do have a choice. And don’t forget the press, and shows like Dr Oz, Dr Phil, or other such venues. Remember the idea isn’t to win, but to get your message out to people who can actually affect a change. > > The thing to remember is the ADA guarantees accessibility but it doesn’t guarantee dignity. That is something you will have to fight for. This isn’t to say using the SD isn’t a place to start, as this forum gets spidered by Google and it will help others find your complaint. But it’s not enough, if you’re truly fed up. > > For instance, the ADA doesn’t mean you can take a power wheelchair on a plane, if it won’t fit. It means they will transfer you to a wheelchair that will fit and carry your power chair in cargo. ADA provides REASONABLE accommodation, not total accommodation. > > Remember the ADA applies to private businesses with less than 15 employees so very a tiny airlines which do short hops, may not apply the ADA > > Remember black people considered it an indignity that they had to sit in the back of the bus. Gay people considered it an indignity they couldn’t get married and now black people can sit where they want and at least in some states, gays can marry. > > It takes time to change things. This post is like an oasis in the middle of a scorching desert. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/154 "2011-06-21T22:03:24Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > I can’t believe this. No, but it does give me the right to demand the same access to toilets as YOU. I shouldn’t have to wait unless another handicapped individual is using the stall or every other stall is full. THAT is the only time YOU would have to wait, so why should I have to wait in those instances AS WELL AS all the instances where someone (like you) wanted the “convenience” of the big, roomy accessible stall? Because out of 300 million people in the US, there are 250,000 with spinal cord injuries ([1](http://www.sci-info-pages.com/facts.html)). While I expect such people make up the majority of bathroom-using-wheelchair-users, we’ll round up to 300,000 to account for people who are in wheelchairs for other reasons (obviously, some people with SCIs cannot or do not use public restrooms, so there is some margin there as well). This is 1/1,000th of the population of the United States. You are literally demanding that people make decisions that potentially inconvenience or discomfort themselves so that, on the 0.1% chance that a wheelchair user enters the bathroom, the wheelchair user does not have to wait. Do you not understand why that is not reasonable? I understand that it is very frustrating for you, because you are that 0.1% chance personified, but it is selfish of you to not realize that in order to avoid inconveniencing you 1 time out of 1000, someone who prefers the handicap stall has to pointlessly inconvenience themselves 999 times out of 1000. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/155 "2011-06-21T22:12:22Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > No evidence of that in THIS thread. 😛 > > Given that you feel free to accuse others of “ignorance,” “apathy” and several other terms implying a moral or intellectual deficiency, getting “speechless” over a word that simply describes a physical condition with no prejudice, (although the word may be out of fashion at this time), is simply going to reinforce the view that you actually feel entitled to some sort of special treatment. > > You would be better off sticking to the topic, itself. I believe the terms “sickly, weak and feeble” (which make up, in part, the definition of the word) do in fact imply a level of prejudice. Especially in the context they are being used here. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/156 "2011-06-21T22:12:25Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > I’m sorry, I didn’t elaborate here very much; something along the lines of redesigning the “aisle chair” so that it can be self-propelled in some fashion. Not necessarily like that of a wheelchair, but in a way that I can use it w/out being pushed. That’s the issue? The fact that for maybe a handful of times in a year, you’re in a position in which your chair has to be pushed by someone else a few feet? Really? I thought that at the very least the problem was going to be the fact that you had to be lifted in and out by someone else. That guy at the courthouse in Tennessee had to be either bodily carried up to the courtroom by a bailiff or crawl up the stairs on his belly, pulling himself up step-by-step using only his arms. And this is about someone pushing the chair down the aisle behind you? Blimey. ---
**Author:** ![Canadjun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@Canadjun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Canadjun)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/157 "2011-06-21T22:13:56Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > You are reading what you want from my postings . I nver even implied that my humiliating dealings with airplanes were somehow above and beyond any and all humiliation anyone else ever experiences. Where in the freakin world did you get that from?! You said we all deal with inconveniences on the airline, I simply said well not like THIS you don’t. I don’t even know how to respond to you here. If anything, it allows me to appreciate others’ suffering and humiliation better. If you have endured similar, even more humiliating experiences at the hands of airlines; PLEASE, let me know here. THEN your post might be appropriate. This has been quite the thread, and I say that as a paraplegic myself. Let’s see if I have this straight. It is more dignified to hump along the floor to the washroom than to get strapped into an aisle chair (strapped in so you don’t bounce off the ceiling if there is turbulence) and pushed to the washroom?! OK - people have different concepts of dignity I guess; I’d feel like a complete fool if I humped along an airplane floor. It’s quite obvious when able-bodied people are heading to the aircraft washroom, so getting pushed there in an aisle chair is announcing anything unusual to the rest of the passengers. Using a leg bag (which would be invisible if you didn’t wear tight clothes - I have used ones in the past) seems to be out of the question according to you. Why? I assume you know that you can use a device (I forget what it is called - ask an OT or medical supply salesperson) that goes **over** your penis rather than into it so you don’t have to worry about catheterization. Sorry - you have two (actually three if you include humping along the floor) perfectly good options - get over the “indignity” of being strapped into an aisle chair and taken to the washroom, or remove the need by using a discrete leg bag. Since what you are asking for amounts to accommodating a **very small** number of disabled people that are **both** able to use an airplane washroom assuming someone gets them there **and** are unwilling to use solutions to their dilemma that **will** work, I think you will find it extremely hard to find anyone in government or the airline industry that will be interested in accommodating your preferences (not needs). ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/158 "2011-06-21T22:19:30Z")
If you’re being pushed in an aisle chair and the stewardess has apply a lot of force to squeeze you past an obese person thighs in the aisle, whose dignity is being harmed the most? > [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > Perhaps there is a way of making the aisle chairs independently mobile other than fitting them with large outer wheels that are pushed by the user? At the outset, that’s not a monstrously unreasonable request (but the financial costs to the airlines _does_ get to count). However, whereas I’m sure you’d quickly become the Motorized Aisle-Seat Obstacle Course Champion, I can imagine other disabled persons having difficulty piloting that sucker down the runway without getting wedged against every other armrest. OTOH, I’ll bet Roomba™ technology could be employed to allow thhe chair to self-navigate down the aisle. Then again, I wonder if those who, unlike the OP, do need to be manhandled on and off the chair and in and out of the restroom find the Promenade to be be the most humiliating aspect of the ordeal. An automated scruff-of the-neck hoist system would be a completely different ballgame. I also wonder if the OP would support the idea of having various Disabled advocacy groups chip in with the airlines to defray the costs of whatever system gets developed. > [@](#): > > And another fuzzy area here is the legal definition of “reasonable”. Who determines what “reasonable” is? Well, _one would hope_, reasonable people. Meaning people who are capable of seeing both sides of an issue and working out a fair compromise. In other words, not you. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/159 "2011-06-21T22:21:17Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I think getting assistance to go to the bathroom is infinitely a better option than dragging myself down the aisle to the bathroom. I mean, it doesn’t even take a microsecond of thought. > > I’ve said twice already that I think airlines can do a marginally better job of accommodating handicapped passengers. But you haven’t proposed anything along the lines of a reasonable solution. > > There’s not enough room for someone to operate a wheelchair in the typical fashion, by pushing the wheels along. Motorized wheelchairs are a non-starter. Allowing disabled passengers to drag themselves along the floor is a non-starter. With those in mind, what is it that you want airlines to do?? Be specific – none of the “respect my dignity” platitudes. Tell me how airlines are supposed to fix this problem in a realistic way. Well you, along with several others, have simply NOT READ what I have written. I have suggested modifying the current aisle chairs in ways that dont infringe on the width issue and don’t need big wheels in order to self propel. The possibilities for such a device include some sort of “hand-crank” system or even “push-pole”-like levers on each side. This is just early thinking but it is not just “respect my dignity” blather. IDK why im writing this though, you won’t read this. You read what you want to reinforce your pre-existing opinions. ---
**Author:** ![curious11](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ac91a4/32.png) [@curious11](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curious11)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244/160 "2011-06-21T22:21:39Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > WHat “possible responses” did I ignore? Well you ignored my suggestion to buy your own plane. You also ignored other people’s suggestion to use devices designed to alleviate the need for a trip to the restroom. I think it is REALISTIC that you could buy and use any of the devices mentioned above. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-planes/586244.md?page=9)