# The Problem with "RPGs" **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [May 23, 2016, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-rpgs/755459 "2016-05-23T14:31:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![dzeiger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/46a35a/32.png) [@dzeiger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dzeiger)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-rpgs/755459/81 "2016-05-27T02:08:19Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Yeah, that’s a totally fair attitude in today’s MMO market. But we’re talking about a game that came out in 1997. UO was the first of its kind in a lot of ways (online text-based MUDs predated it, of course) and the “PVP/no PVP” distinction didn’t really exist as a formalized market segmentation. I certainly didn’t buy it expecting to do nothing but get ganked by other players. I bought it expecting it to be, “Ultima, but you can play with your friends.” What I got was, “Ultima: Eternal Death Match.” Not only wasn’t it the game I wanted to play, it wasn’t the game I was sold. I wasn’t alone in that reaction, either: “What’s wrong with UO, and how to fix it,” was the subject of a lot of columns in the gaming mags at the time. A significant percentage of the customer base felt they were burned by the experience, because Origins didn’t realize that if you include the \*option \*of being dick in an online game, being a dick is very rapidly going to become the required play style. Exactly. They seemed to expect that the “reputation” system, where you would be kill-on-sight to town guards if you attacked enough players would be a deterrent, but seemed to completely miss the idea that people would buy a second account to do store stuff on and go into town with. The guys who went and cleared out ruins, put on Orc armor and role-played monsters for other players to challenge, those guys were cool (though the rep system made even that difficult). The “highwayman” types, while perhaps marginally less jerky than the people who would cast wall of flame at dungeon exit points because zoning immunity hadn’t been implemented yet, were still jerks. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-rpgs/755459/82 "2016-05-27T14:54:57Z")
> [@dzeiger](#): > > Exactly. They seemed to expect that the “reputation” system, where you would be kill-on-sight to town guards if you attacked enough players would be a deterrent, but seemed to completely miss the idea that people would buy a second account to do store stuff on and go into town with. > > The guys who went and cleared out ruins, put on Orc armor and role-played monsters for other players to challenge, those guys were cool (though the rep system made even that difficult). The “highwayman” types, while perhaps marginally less jerky than the people who would cast wall of flame at dungeon exit points because zoning immunity hadn’t been implemented yet, were still jerks. Back then (maybe 2-3 months after release), you didn’t even have to buy a second account- you could have multiple characters on the same account for the same amount of money. So there was literally no incentive NOT to have multiple characters. Second, the whole thing was a reaction to there not being enough monsters in the game to fight. At the time you could literally roam the wilderness for hours in hope of finding _something_ to fight, or go into the caves/ruins with hordes of other people in hopes of fighting something there. It was kind of a situation of “We’ve paid this monthly fee, we may as well make it useful.” And… how else DO you play an evil character in a game like that? Killing and thieving/robbing is pretty much it. I kind of think that they should have just upped the monster spawn rate so that there were swarms of creatures roaming around. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-rpgs/755459/83 "2016-05-27T17:12:04Z")
> [@bump](#): > > And… how else DO you play an evil character in a game like that? You don’t, unless you’re okay with behaving obnoxiously. If a game is not set up to accommodate a particular playstyle without ruining the fun for others, don’t adopt that playstyle. I used to play Magic: the Gathering very casually. I came up with a deck I called the Asshole Deck: it relied on various means to assassinate enemy monsters and protect from the damage of any that came through (force field, that orb that twiddled enemies, nettling imp, that assassin that killed tapped creatures, etc.). It was really effective, and the first few times I played it I had a lot of fun. But it only had one real trick, and the only real way to defeat it at the time was also pretty boring. So after I showed its obnoxious trick to my friends, I stopped playing it. What’s the fun in victory, if it sucks the fun out of the game for other people? And that’s in a game explicitly designed to be competitive. UO wasn’t designed explicitly for that, and people entered the game not expecting to play kill-or-be killed combat vs. other players. How much more obnoxious is it to prevent others from playing the game they want to play, just because you’re bored? ---
**Author:** ![HookerChemical](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/278dde/32.png) [@HookerChemical](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HookerChemical)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-rpgs/755459/84 "2016-05-27T23:30:21Z")
> [@G0sp3l](#): > > I agree with you about the new “Action” rpgs. Which is why Dragon Age: Inquisition was such a disappoint to me. I wanted Dragon Age: Origins, Part III. > > I have similar gripes about Skyrim and Fallout 4. No defined classes. I’m not saying those games can’t be fun but they lack something for me. As long as DA: Origins, Part III is nothing like Dragon Age 2, I will be happy. (I liked Origins and Inquisition, DA 2 was awful.) I like classless tabletop systems, so Skyrim and Fallout don’t bother me. My favorite system is (kinda) skill-less even. I haven’t played Fallout 4 yet, but what I’ve seen of it doesn’t make me think it’s different enough from 3 to bother me at all. ---
**Author:** ![HookerChemical](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/278dde/32.png) [@HookerChemical](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HookerChemical)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2016, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-rpgs/755459/85 "2016-05-27T23:42:57Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Everquest has a system where you increase your skills by using them – swing your sword enough times for “You have become better at One-Hand Slash! (22)”. What it results in is skill grinding where you fall down a hill repeatedly to practice Safe Fall or spam open and close a bank door 2,500 times to cap out your Lockpick or cast Resist Cold 175 times to cap out Alteration (or whatever spell class it fell under). Good times. Morrowind was the first game that came to my mind with such a system, so it’s not only MMORPGs. I see the merit of the system, but I like the tabletop versions I’ve seen more. Basically, if you use a skill (and additional requirements, depending on the system), you can try and advance that skill when you skill up (finish the adventure, camp, whatever triggers advancement). That way, you get better at the skills your character uses. There’s usually a pool that can be used to advance other skills to reflect characters practicing skills that don’t see use in tabletop sessions. An example of how this might work is your character is tracking down Mr. McGuffin using his hacking of databases. This leads to a climatic fight with Mr. M and his thugs. You checked off the boxes for your hacking and gun-fu skills, so those each go up by a D6. You also get 5 points to distribute among any skills you’d like. You put it all in baking to reflect that you were practicing your cookie baking between database hacks. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-rpgs/755459/86 "2016-05-31T15:43:59Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > You don’t, unless you’re okay with behaving obnoxiously. If a game is not set up to accommodate a particular playstyle without ruining the fun for others, don’t adopt that playstyle. That’s silly- then everyone basically has to be a good alignment character. Evil characters are by definition, evil. That means in the context of a fantasy themed RPG, robbing, murdering, stealing, and otherwise doing shit that nobody likes. That’s WHY they’re evil. And honestly, if I’m paying $30 a month or whatever it was, I don’t give 2 shits if the other guy is having a good time- I’m trying to maximize my own entertainment dollar. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-rpgs/755459/87 "2016-05-31T16:17:48Z")
> [@bump](#): > > And honestly, if I’m paying $30 a month or whatever it was, I don’t give 2 shits if the other guy is having a good time- Social contracts are important in multiplayer games of any stripe, whether they’re free or premium. There’s has to be a certain agreement, implicit or explicit, that **everyone** is there to have fun. If one group of players is having fun at the expense of the rest, then pretty soon the overall game population will start to drop and the game will suffer as a result. tl;dr, you should give a shit about other people. Even on the internet. Making a conscious point of refusing to do is, well, pretty damned shitty. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-rpgs/755459/88 "2016-05-31T17:13:46Z")
> [@bump](#): > > That’s silly- then everyone basically has to be a good alignment character. Evil characters are by definition, evil. That means in the context of a fantasy themed RPG, robbing, murdering, stealing, and otherwise doing shit that nobody likes. That’s WHY they’re evil. There’s nothing remotely silly about that. If the system doesn’t allow for evil characters to be played without harshing everyone’s buzz (as, say, WOW allows), then no, you can’t play an evil character. So sorry. > [@](#): > > And honestly, if I’m paying $30 a month or whatever it was, I don’t give 2 shits if the other guy is having a good time- I’m trying to maximize my own entertainment dollar. So I can tell. Maximizing your own fun at the expense of the fun of other people is indeed one definition of evil, and although doing it in a MMORPG is pretty mild, it’s not the ethical behavior you seem to think it is. They’re also paying their $30, and harshing their buzz just because you want to play an evil PC is not a good thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-rpgs/755459/89 "2016-05-31T17:32:41Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > There’s nothing remotely silly about that. If the system doesn’t allow for evil characters to be played without harshing everyone’s buzz (as, say, WOW allows), then no, you can’t play an evil character. So sorry. > > So I can tell. Maximizing your own fun at the expense of the fun of other people is indeed one definition of evil, and although doing it in a MMORPG is pretty mild, it’s not the ethical behavior you seem to think it is. They’re also paying their $30, and harshing their buzz just because you want to play an evil PC is not a good thing to do. Let me guess… you’re one of those people who doesn’t think the WoW Funeral raid is one of the most riotously funny things ever. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-rpgs/755459/90 "2016-05-31T18:10:47Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Let me guess… you’re one of those people who doesn’t think the WoW Funeral raid is one of the most riotously funny things ever. I’m not familiar with it, but if it’s what I think, as a one-off thing I don’t actually think it’s a problem. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-rpgs/755459/91 "2016-05-31T21:05:41Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I’m not familiar with it, but if it’s what I think, as a one-off thing I don’t actually think it’s a problem. I wasn’t involved, but what happened is that a WoW player died in real life. Her clan (or whatever they’re called in WoW) mates had an online memorial service for her character (and her, I suppose) in-game. For some unfathomable reason, they had this memorial service in some area in the game world that was open to PVP combat. Long story short, a rival clan got wind of this thing, and mounted a massive attack on the memorial service, catching them unawares and just about wiping them out. There are Youtube videos of it out there if you want to see. Basically the arguments go as follows - attacking clan are assholes because they attacked a memorial service for a real-life person, and caught them with their pants down, so to speak. The counter-argument is that the in-game memorial was absurd, and these people were idiots for doing it somewhere that they could get so absolutely bum-rushed, without any pickets or other sorts of lookouts keeping guard. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-rpgs/755459/92 "2016-05-31T22:23:39Z")
> [@bump](#): > > For some unfathomable reason, they had this memorial service in some area in the game world that was open to PVP combat. Probably because areas “open to PvP” includes the entire game-world outside of instanced dungeons and cities. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-rpgs/755459/93 "2016-05-31T23:08:50Z")
They assumed (probably foolishly, I will admit) that since this was a memorial service for a person who had \*\*died in real life \*\*there would be a certain amount of respect afforded despite it being held in a virtual space. Just another example of John Gabriel’s Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory in action. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2016, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-rpgs/755459/94 "2016-06-01T01:20:16Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I wasn’t involved, but what happened is that a WoW player died in real life. Oh. Say no more: bunch of fuckin assholes. ---
**Author:** ![Chihuahua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dec6dc/32.png) [@Chihuahua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chihuahua)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2016, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-rpgs/755459/95 "2016-06-01T15:25:52Z")
> [@bump](#): > > You wouldn’t believe the number of people who got really angry that we were actually trying to role-play evil characters though- they didn’t draw any distinction between actual evil role playing and dipshit teenagers just pk-ing anyone who ventured out. I don’t see the difference, either. The end result is the same. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2016, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-rpgs/755459/96 "2016-06-01T15:30:53Z")
> [@Chihuahua](#): > > I don’t see the difference, either. The end result is the same. Don’t you see? Those other people were just acting obnoxious and ruining everyone’s day. **Bump** wasn’t **acting** obnoxious, he was **roleplaying** an obnoxious character who ruined everyone’s day. Totally different! ---
**Author:** ![Airk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de053/32.png) [@Airk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airk)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2016, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-rpgs/755459/97 "2016-06-01T15:42:18Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Don’t you see? Those other people were just acting obnoxious and ruining everyone’s day. **Bump** wasn’t **acting** obnoxious, he was **roleplaying** an obnoxious character who ruined everyone’s day. Totally different! It’s what my CHARACTER would do! ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2016, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-rpgs/755459/98 "2016-06-02T01:18:36Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > They assumed (probably foolishly, I will admit) that since this was a memorial service for a person who had \*\*died in real life \*\*there would be a certain amount of respect afforded despite it being held in a virtual space. > > Just another example of John Gabriel’s Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory in action. IMO, the only ones acting like Internet Fuckwads in the situation were the people who decided they got to write rules for the server to follow, then tried to paint other players as bad for following the game rules but not the extra rules they decided to impose. Note that IRL no one holds a memorial service by going to a paintball field, signing up for a big team fight, then telling the other side that they are assholes for playing paintball because they’ve just declared it a memorial service. They either work with the owner to arrange a service, rent out an area for themselves, or pick an area that’s not for open-ended paintball. If you can declare ‘oh, this is a memorial service, you’re not allowed to attack us until we want to’, how far do you take it? Are people allowed to declare ‘memorial service’ time for their relatives deaths? What about pets? What about someone they kind of know? What about just for a bad day? Or maybe a historical day, can someone declare 9/11 a no PVP day? Once you open the door to anyone being able to alter the rules of the game by declaring ‘memorial service’, it’s going to get abused rather quickly. And… > [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Probably because areas “open to PvP” includes the entire game-world outside of instanced dungeons and cities. You left off the dozen or so outdoor zones where you’re not flagged for PVP, minimized the size of the large, sprawling cities with cathedrals, trees, and other gathering areas, and forgot completely that there are dozens of servers flagged as RP or Normal where you are only PVP-flagged if you choose to be. They specifically chose to hold their event on a PVP server in a PVP-enabled area in spite of a plethora of options that could not be interrupted by fighting. They wanted a fight so they could paint themselves as martyrs for fifteen minutes of fame, and frankly I find it a bit disturbing that they used their friend’s death in this way. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2016, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-rpgs/755459/99 "2016-06-02T01:50:27Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > Note that IRL no one holds a memorial service by going to a paintball field, signing up for a big team fight, then telling the other side that they are assholes for playing paintball because they’ve just declared it a memorial service. They either work with the owner to arrange a service, rent out an area for themselves, or pick an area that’s not for open-ended paintball. What happened was more like a bunch of people holding a memorial service on a public beach, then having another group of people find out about it, go to the public beach and spend the entire time making as much noise as possible for the express purpose of ruining the memorial service. One does not need to break a rule to be an asshole. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2016, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problem-with-rpgs/755459/100 "2016-06-02T02:44:59Z")
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