# The Problems With Liberalism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 19, 2009, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problems-with-liberalism/514341 "2009-10-19T15:49:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problems-with-liberalism/514341/161 "2009-10-22T21:16:10Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Fortunately for me, it doesn’t have that effect. Because, as I mentioned - I’m supposed to care about this - it is meant to bother me, just like the same foolishness from **Gyrate** and **Really Not All That Bright** and various other clowns. > > But I don’t. Like I said, it is mostly a signal that you have run out of arguments and can’t change the subject. > > Regards, > Shodan Um…there wasn’t an argument there. You knee jerked to a tongue in cheek comment posted by Polycarp as an excuse to post your latest brilliant observation about what liberals do. What’s odder is that rather than simply post a “my bad” about it, you restate your brilliant observation. I’m trying to decide which is greater: your ego, your sensitivity, or your lack of a sense of humor. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problems-with-liberalism/514341/162 "2009-10-22T21:23:24Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Mathematics has a liberal bias. > > Algebra however is Objectivist, because A = A. Proof? To establish anything as absolute, you have to have a set of rules. To determine those rules you must assume some things. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problems-with-liberalism/514341/163 "2009-10-22T21:26:50Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > Proof? To establish anything as absolute, you have to have a set of rules. To determine those rules you must assume some things. Exactly, for instance, in programming languages where you can override the equality operator, it is not necessarily the case that A = A. (Not to mention SQL where one null value is not equal to another null value, but that was actually done for a relatively non-perverse reason.) ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problems-with-liberalism/514341/164 "2009-10-22T21:57:33Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Ironically enough, the Goons are generally _very_ serious about projecting (and voicing) their “We aren’t serious!” schtick. No doubt, no doubt, it’s like goth kids and their rigid conformance to the visual representation of non-conformity. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problems-with-liberalism/514341/165 "2009-10-22T22:00:45Z")
I hope **Euphonius Polemic** didn’t think I was serious when I told him/her/it that I hated him/her/it. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problems-with-liberalism/514341/166 "2009-10-22T22:04:37Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > Um…there wasn’t an argument there. Actually, there was. It ran something like this: **Polycarp** : Let’s discuss some of the problems with liberalism. **Me** : [You aren’t serious about this, you just want a pile-on.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11679667&postcount=8) **Polycarp** : [No, no - I’m serious. How about a discussion?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11679775&postcount=9) **Me** : OK, here are some arguments, with cites. **Various Idiots** : Racist! **Polycarp** : I was only joking! As I said, both the last two statements are better interpreted as “I surrender”. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problems-with-liberalism/514341/167 "2009-10-22T22:45:03Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I’d not heard of the Sokal hoax but it rings true. In my own particular area of expertise (musicology), despite being of a postmodern bent in aesthetic preferences, I tend to give [New Musicology](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_musicology) a wide berth for many of the same reasons Sokal gives - there has been a lot of poor reasoning and sloppy research methodology muddying the waters there. Hey, my wife is a musicologist! She’s a professor at UCLA, so until very, very recently she was a colleague of Susan McClary. I think she’d agree with you that New Musicology has opened the doors for a lot of sloppy scholarship. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problems-with-liberalism/514341/168 "2009-10-23T01:05:23Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Actually, there was. It ran something like this: > > **Polycarp** : Let’s discuss some of the problems with liberalism. > > **Me** : [You aren’t serious about this, you just want a pile-on.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11679667&postcount=8) > **Polycarp** : [No, no - I’m serious. How about a discussion?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11679775&postcount=9) > > **Me** : OK, here are some arguments, with cites. > > **Various Idiots** : Racist! > > **Polycarp** : I was only joking! > > As I said, both the last two statements are better interpreted as “I surrender”. > > Regards, > Shodan You can frame it however you want, but it won’t make it any less of a punchline. You were in such a hurry to pin somebody with that little zinger of yours and it just blew up in your face. Better yet, it has nothing to do with you being a “conservative” and everything to do with you being a colossal tool. I’m honestly struggling to find words to express just how funny I find it. I fear this emoticon shall have to suffice.😃 ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problems-with-liberalism/514341/169 "2009-10-23T01:40:04Z")
For what it’s worth, the comment that **Shodan** interprets as “I was only joking” was my noting that the “Being the nice guy that I am” in starting the thread was said tongue in cheek – and I’m, confident from his response that **SA** took it as such. As for the rest of it, people were already complaining about how **SA** was hijacking the thread I linked from, so this thread, started in the Pit as the spinoff of a political Pit thread (which may have been a mistake), was intended to void further hijack of what had been an interesting thread. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problems-with-liberalism/514341/170 "2009-10-23T10:24:39Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > You can frame it however you want, but it won’t make it any less of a punchline. You were in such a hurry to pin somebody with that little zinger of yours and it just blew up in your face. I see. So when you said this - > [@](#): > > The thing to do in cases such as is to ignore the crap, post your thoughts, and reply to the reasonable ones. you were lying. Same thing when **Polycarp** said this - > [@](#): > > By and large, I’ve “kept my mouth shut” in this thread, intending to use it as outlined in the OP: hear what Starving Artist’s issues with “liberalism” (either as it really exists in what liberals truly think, or what SA’s perceptions of it are) may be, and respond to them. O think he and others, particularly Shodan, have had some valid points to make, both in the past and here… > > What Shodan has to say here is a legitimate issue to address… > > I have a serious question here for SHodan: All these were really lies. In other words, both of you deliberately posted things you didn’t mean, to stir up trouble. I’ll take your advice, **Harborwolf** , though, to this extent. My bad for believing that liberals are prepared to debate in good faith when they say they are. I guess the thread has served its purpose, though. Another of the problems with liberalism is that so many of its proponents are trolls. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problems-with-liberalism/514341/171 "2009-10-23T11:02:01Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Fortunately for me, it doesn’t have that effect. Because, as I mentioned - I’m supposed to care about this - it is meant to bother me, just like the same foolishness from **Gyrate** and **Really Not All That Bright** and various other clowns. Ooo, a namecheck. I feel just like Sally Field! _You don’t like me! You really don’t like me!_ ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problems-with-liberalism/514341/172 "2009-10-23T11:27:17Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I see. So when you said this - you were lying. Nope. I said that to **Starving Artist** , not you. The advice was meant for **Starving Artist** , not you. While I share lisseners concerns with the approach SA uses to formulate his world view, he seems as if he can carry on a good faith discussion. You, on the other hand, are a tool. You’re a watered down AM conservative who trolls online. You’re a joke. > [@](#): > > Same thing when **Polycarp** said this - All these were really lies. In other words, both of you deliberately posted things you didn’t mean, to stir up trouble. It’s always tough when you find out that not everything is about you, isn’t it? > [@](#): > > I’ll take your advice, **Harborwolf** , though, to this extent. My bad for believing that liberals are prepared to debate in good faith when they say they are. Poor lil guy. Two things here. (1) I’m saddened to find your high view of liberals has been shattered by this thread. (2) When the fuck have you even been prepared to debate much less in good faith? > [@](#): > > I guess the thread has served its purpose, though. Another of the problems with liberalism is that so many of its proponents are trolls. Stop it. If I laugh anymore, I won’t be able to breathe.😃 > [@](#): > > Regards, > Shodan God you’re a schmuck. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problems-with-liberalism/514341/173 "2009-10-23T14:28:48Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > > [@Shodan](#): > > > > The other side is supposed to try and prove that they are not racists. Then the Usual Suspects, on and off the SDMB, simply ignore everything they say and repeat the charge over and over. Which is why I said: > [@RTFirefly](#): > > I won’t call it racist, but let’s just say it’s _odd_, and seems to require some sort of explanation, that you should make an argument about the disintegration of marriage, yet only talk about blacks. My point being that the most obvious explanation for such a choice would be some sort of race-related bias in the way one views the world. Maybe you don’t have to _prove_ that you were viewing the world with such a bias, but yeah: you’ve got to give _some_ alternative explanation, otherwise what’s a reasonable person to believe? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problems-with-liberalism/514341/174 "2009-10-23T15:45:50Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Ooo, a namecheck. I feel just like Sally Field! > > _You don’t like me! You really don’t like me!_ _high five_ ---
**Author:** ![Dag\_Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@Dag\_Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dag_Otto)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problems-with-liberalism/514341/175 "2009-10-23T21:12:02Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Well _that’s_ not very civil, now, is it? I thought conservatives were against public nudity. 😉 I’m late to the party as usual, but if \*\*Really Not All That Bright \*\*is under your bed, the depantsing has probably already been taken care of. No one knows why, that’s just how he is. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problems-with-liberalism/514341/176 "2009-10-23T23:06:37Z")
Yeah, you’re probably right. Still, I thought it would be funny to toss him outdoors with the boner he got when he thought I had scat porn under my bed, and that still stands. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problems-with-liberalism/514341/177 "2009-10-23T23:32:08Z")
I’m not happy to see you. It really was just a pen in my pocket. ---
**Author:** ![Dorothea\_Book](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/da6949/32.png) [@Dorothea\_Book](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorothea_Book)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2009, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problems-with-liberalism/514341/178 "2009-10-24T00:05:11Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I hope **Euphonius Polemic** didn’t think I was serious when I told him/her/it that I hated him/her/it. Yikes, **mswas** , you’re so…postmodern. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![zen101](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c68b51/32.png) [@zen101](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zen101)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2009, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problems-with-liberalism/514341/179 "2009-10-24T00:12:43Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Or perhaps Al Sharpton vs. MLK. > > If you just want problems that liberalism has caused, how about the breakdown of the black family, which is exacerbated by welfare. > > Of course, on reflection, it is hard to believe you really want any kind of discussion, or you would have started this in GD instead of the Pit. So apparently you are merely calling for a Two Minute Hate. > > Regards, > Shodan I’m pretty sure that slavery had a lot do to with disrupting the family structures of blacks in this country early on. What with people being sold off and all. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2009, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problems-with-liberalism/514341/180 "2009-10-24T00:27:35Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I’m not happy to see you. It really was just a pen in my pocket. Yeah, like your dick would reach that far! 😛 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problems-with-liberalism/514341.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-problems-with-liberalism/514341.md?page=10)