# The PROFITS, My Dear! Gun Makers Cash IN!!!
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-profits-my-dear-gun-makers-cash-in/759502
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [July 9, 2016, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-profits-my-dear-gun-makers-cash-in/759502 "2016-07-09T21:10:25Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)
#### Post date: [July 10, 2016, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-profits-my-dear-gun-makers-cash-in/759502/21 "2016-07-10T16:21:38Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#):
>
> Among the other sad ‘achievements’ of the murderous Dallas sniper–chiefly taking five innocent lives, of course, but also putting an abrupt end to conversations about black-men/law-enforcement-officer interactions, and possibly to the Black Lives Matter movement itself–among these other results of his brutal and homicidal choices, is his signal work in guaranteeing RECORD profits for firearm manufacturers.
>
> There’s no sound sweeter to the ears of the gun industry than those wonderful, wonderful words relayed by Dallas Police Chief David Brown:
>
> _“He said he wanted to kill white people.”_
>
> If anyone thinks this statement, and the actions that preceded it, won’t lead to _record_ profits for the makers of firearms and ammo, then they aren’t thinking. We’ve been on an upward trend for profits for quite a while, as the excellent graphics in this [bloomberg.com](http://bloomberg.com) article show; it begins with the Orlando mass shooting’s aftermath:
>
> [http://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2016-gun-sales/](http://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2016-gun-sales/)
>
> The article goes on to show historical trends. The pattern is clear: for the gun makers, business is FABULOUS!!!
> Watching these violent episodes night after night–America’s love affair with death by gun–one can’t help but think of the costs. Chief among those costs are the tragedies of lives cut short, and for the wounded and survivors, for lives blasted and warped by their close encounters with the Almighty Firearm.
>
> But there are more mundane costs associated with these events, too. Costs of policing, of medical care, of compensating for lost wages.
>
> My question is: why are these manufacturers being allowed to rack up such stupendous profits from a product which imposes such massive costs on society? The federal (and some state) governments do impose some excise taxes on guns and ammo–but why at so relatively paltry a level? (No matter how high it is, it’s not high enough.)
>
> Shouldn’t the manufacture of firearms and ammunition be a bit less profitable? Shouldn’t the taxes on the industry be high enough to compensate taxpayers for the burden _we_ now bear, in paying for the impact guns have on our communities? Shouldn’t the makers have to bear _more_ of that burden?
Not until the day junk food has to pay a tax due to costs on society. Obesity is bad. Car manufacturers produce a product that kills more Americans every year than war. Where is their danger tax?
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [July 10, 2016, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-profits-my-dear-gun-makers-cash-in/759502/22 "2016-07-10T16:24:17Z")
You forgot to mention swimming pools.
The OP leaves much to criticize, but you missed the mark.
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### Author:  [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)
#### Post date: [July 10, 2016, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-profits-my-dear-gun-makers-cash-in/759502/23 "2016-07-10T18:37:58Z")
Society taxes cigarettes not because tobacco companies are evil nor because they make excess profits. The purpose of the tax is to reduce demand and to compensate society for the ill effects of tobacco which are borne by the taxpayer.
The same argument applies favorably to taxes on guns.
However I recommend against such a move. In an extreme case, gun nuts would take such a tax as reason to put the 2nd Amendment to use and overthrow tyranny. We know that some local law enforcement agencies are infested with redneck assholes who might join the mob rather than oppose it.
But more realistically, gun suppression measures build very bad will among a large portion of the citizenry, and waste that goodwill with very little to show for it. For increasingly many voters, gun rights guide voting decisions. (Numerous gays have been interviewed and found to support the GOP because of guns!) If Trump does win — keep your fingers crossed — _ **GUNS** _ will be a very major reason why.
> [@Omar\_Little](#):
>
> OP is an idiot. Excise taxes would just be added to the price of the product and would be borne by the consumer. Resulting profits of the arms manufacturers would not change.
Someone is showing ignorance of elementary economics here, but it isn’t OP.
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### Author:  [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)
#### Post date: [July 10, 2016, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-profits-my-dear-gun-makers-cash-in/759502/24 "2016-07-10T19:43:07Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> There is no general principle of law that allows the government to cap profits being made by a particular business.
There is a very well-established principle of law that allows the government to impose taxes so that the revenues of said taxes may be used to (among other things) defray the costs imposed on the government by the use of the product in question.
For example, the taxes on a pack of cigarettes in the USA, in several states, sum to nearly half the total price of the pack. Some of these revenues fund programs relating to lung cancer and other costs that would not exist if no one smoked tobacco.
My question/proposal was about the use of excise taxes: a time-honored method of raising revenues from the sale of products that impose costs on a society. I made no suggestions about capping profits via legislative edicts.
> **[0202.pdf](https://assets.tobaccofreekids.org/factsheets/0202.pdf)**
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### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [July 10, 2016, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-profits-my-dear-gun-makers-cash-in/759502/25 "2016-07-10T19:53:41Z")
About 2.5 years ago, I bought 100 shares of Smith & Wesson in part to mock now-banned user Kable. [He sneered at me for investing a mere ~$1250.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16935902&postcount=309)
Now I kind of regret not throwing $10k or more at it. It’s done extremely well.
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### Author:  [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)
#### Post date: [July 10, 2016, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-profits-my-dear-gun-makers-cash-in/759502/26 "2016-07-10T19:54:55Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#):
>
> My question is: why are these manufacturers being allowed to rack up such stupendous profits from a product which imposes such massive costs on society? The federal (and some state) governments do impose some excise taxes on guns and ammo–but why at so relatively paltry a level? (No matter how high it is, it’s not high enough.)
The usual answer: the Constitution. It’s an outdated idea in my opinion but the Second Amendment exists. We shouldn’t ignore the law just because it’s inconvenient to follow it and/or change it.
And as long as the Second Amendment is law, I believe a tax like you proposed would be unconstitutional. You can justify normal taxation on firearms and ammo. But a special high tax on firearms and ammo would be infringing people’s right to buy them.
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### Author:  [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)
#### Post date: [July 10, 2016, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-profits-my-dear-gun-makers-cash-in/759502/27 "2016-07-10T20:01:29Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#):
>
> I want to know what he thought he was going to do with 1500 guns. You could arm a small town. And honestly, if I’m that paranoid, I doubt I’d want to go handing my guns out. Basically just paints a big target on your back.
I didn’t know the late Mr Lash. But as noted he had a large inventory of guns and ammunition - and a large amount of currency. And his family is saying they were unaware of all of this and nobody knows where he was getting money from.
These are the kinds of things you’d expect to find in the possession of an illegal gun dealer.
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### Author:  [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)
#### Post date: [July 10, 2016, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-profits-my-dear-gun-makers-cash-in/759502/28 "2016-07-10T20:04:16Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#):
>
> The usual answer: the Constitution. It’s an outdated idea in my opinion but the Second Amendment exists. We shouldn’t ignore the law just because it’s inconvenient to follow it and/or change it.
> And as long as the Second Amendment is law, I believe a tax like you proposed would be unconstitutional. You can justify normal taxation on firearms and ammo. But a special high tax on firearms and ammo would be infringing people’s right to buy them.
Quote me the part of the Second Amendment which guarantees a right to acquire a firearm at a good price.
Or even just the part of the Second Amendment that references a right to _acquire_ a firearm. Not “keep;’ not 'bear.” Just the part about a right to _procure_.
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### Author:  [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)
#### Post date: [July 10, 2016, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-profits-my-dear-gun-makers-cash-in/759502/29 "2016-07-10T20:17:01Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#):
>
> Shouldn’t the taxes on the industry be high enough to compensate taxpayers for the burden _we_ now bear, in paying for the impact guns have on our communities? Shouldn’t the makers have to bear _more_ of that burden?
Despite the agitation about it, the actual impact is minuscule. Most firearm deaths are suicides, not murders or accidents.
What “huge” costs exactly are you claiming that we need to tax these manufacturers extra for?
I wouldn’t have a problem for an added fee to help pay for better police training and standards with respect to violent encounters, but I think the cost angle is a non-starter- it’s just not _that_ high overall.
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### Author:  [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)
#### Post date: [July 10, 2016, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-profits-my-dear-gun-makers-cash-in/759502/30 "2016-07-10T20:26:56Z")
> [@bump](#):
>
> What “huge” costs exactly are you claiming that we need to tax these manufacturers extra for?
To give a tiny indication of the iceberg (of costs), just look at videos of the Dallas incident and the hours and days after it. The extra hours of policing; the burden on the medical establishment (paramedics, ambulances, hospitals, doctors, nurses, etc.); the coming legal entanglements (someone will end up in court); the costs of investigating the crime–personnel, equipment, etc.; the lost wages and also the ongoing medical expenses of those injured. That’s probably just a fraction of the total costs that will ultimately be attributable to that _one_ incident.
None of those costs would have been imposed had the killer been armed with a machete. Sure, a guy with a machete could do some damage–but not at a distance, and not to so many. (And of course if anyone wants to raise the excise taxes on machetes, too, that would be fine.)
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### Author:  [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)
#### Post date: [July 10, 2016, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-profits-my-dear-gun-makers-cash-in/759502/31 "2016-07-10T21:15:01Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#):
>
> Quote me the part of the Second Amendment which guarantees a right to acquire a firearm at a good price…
And quote me the part of Roe v. Wade which guarantees a right to acquire an abortion at a good price.
Placing an excessively burdensome tax on a product or service in an effort to effectively ban a legal product or service would be open to tremendous abuse. SCOTUS decisions on abortion indicate restrictions that place an undue burden on a woman procuring an abortion do not stand up to Constitutional scrutiny. I suspect the same could be said of backdoor efforts to price guns out of existence.
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### Author:  [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)
#### Post date: [July 10, 2016, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-profits-my-dear-gun-makers-cash-in/759502/32 "2016-07-10T21:23:16Z")
When estimating the total costs of guns to society, don’t forget that the high incidence of killings of innocent citizens by police _ **is caused by the large number of guns** _. If the country were less gun-happy, and gun toters less common, cops would in much less fear for their lives when encountering random civilians.
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [July 10, 2016, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-profits-my-dear-gun-makers-cash-in/759502/33 "2016-07-10T21:38:12Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#):
>
> Quote me the part of the Second Amendment which guarantees a right to acquire a firearm at a good price.
>
> Or even just the part of the Second Amendment that references a right to _acquire_ a firearm. Not “keep;’ not 'bear.” Just the part about a right to _procure_.
Don’t be an idiot. Just apply this same rule to something you’re in favor of, if you want to see how it works.
Poll tax, anyone?
Let’s levy a $10,000 tax on abortions. There is nothing in the constitution at all about abortions, so why would women have a right to get one at a good price?
The SCOTUS would not allow an arbitrarily high tax on guns, since it would effectively make them unavailable to many citizens.
ETA: Ninja’ed by **Iggy**!
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### Author:  [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)
#### Post date: [July 10, 2016, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-profits-my-dear-gun-makers-cash-in/759502/34 "2016-07-10T21:39:13Z")
> [@Iggy](#):
>
> Placing an excessively burdensome tax on a product or service in an effort to effectively ban a legal product or service would be open to tremendous abuse. SCOTUS decisions on abortion indicate restrictions that place an undue burden on a woman procuring an abortion do not stand up to Constitutional scrutiny. I suspect the same could be said of backdoor efforts to price guns out of existence.
Works fine for another undesirable product – tobacco. The average of all taxes on tobacco sales are about 57% of the total cost; the excise tax alone in New York state is $4.35. The Constitution is fine with it. And many of those revenues are directed to important causes – the federal excise tax goes to pay for children’s health care. There’s no shortage of societal ills and costs caused by guns that gun taxes could help pay for.
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [July 10, 2016, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-profits-my-dear-gun-makers-cash-in/759502/35 "2016-07-10T21:41:42Z")
> [@wolfpup](#):
>
> Works fine for another undesirable product – tobacco. The average of all taxes on tobacco sales are about 57% of the total cost; the excise tax alone in New York state is $4.35. The Constitution is fine with it. And many of those revenues are directed to important causes – the federal excise tax goes to pay for children’s health care. There’s no shortage of societal ills and costs caused by guns that gun taxes could help pay for.
Not a good analogy since access to tobacco is not guaranteed by the constitution. Congress could make it illegal by simply passing a law, as they do with other “drugs”.
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### Author:  [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)
#### Post date: [July 10, 2016, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-profits-my-dear-gun-makers-cash-in/759502/36 "2016-07-10T22:26:41Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#):
>
> Not a good analogy since access to tobacco is not guaranteed by the constitution.
Access to guns is not guaranteed by the Constitution.
“Keep” them if you have them, and “bear” them if you have them: yes (assuming you are part of a well-regulated Militia).
Quote the part of the amendment that guarantees “access,” please.
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### Author:  [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)
#### Post date: [July 10, 2016, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-profits-my-dear-gun-makers-cash-in/759502/37 "2016-07-10T22:35:10Z")
> [@Iggy](#):
>
> And quote me the part of Roe v. Wade which guarantees a right to acquire an abortion at a good price.
>
> Placing an excessively burdensome tax on a product or service in an effort to effectively ban a legal product or service would be open to tremendous abuse. SCOTUS decisions on abortion indicate restrictions that place an undue burden on a woman procuring an abortion do not stand up to Constitutional scrutiny. I suspect the same could be said of backdoor efforts to price guns out of existence.
wolfpup answered this well. In addition: note that I have not called for taxation at a level to “price guns out of existence,” as you say.
> [@septimus](#):
>
> When estimating the total costs of guns to society, don’t forget that the high incidence of killings of innocent citizens by police _ **is caused by the large number of guns** _. If the country were less gun-happy, and gun toters less common, cops would in much less fear for their lives when encountering random civilians.
This very thought was what kept coming to me while watching the Dallas coverage. Would the sniper have been able to hit all twelve of those people if he had been armed with a hunting rifle instead of with an semi-automatic assault weapon?
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### Author:  [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)
#### Post date: [July 10, 2016, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-profits-my-dear-gun-makers-cash-in/759502/38 "2016-07-10T22:43:48Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#):
>
> This very thought was what kept coming to me while watching the Dallas coverage. Would the sniper have been able to hit all twelve of those people if he had been armed with a hunting rifle instead of with an semi-automatic assault weapon?
What exactly – in YOUR opinion – is the difference between the two?
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### Author:  [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)
#### Post date: [July 10, 2016, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-profits-my-dear-gun-makers-cash-in/759502/39 "2016-07-10T22:46:20Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#):
>
> Not a good analogy since access to tobacco is not guaranteed by the constitution. Congress could make it illegal by simply passing a law, as they do with other “drugs”.
The other poster was trying to claim that for some reason the constitution would prohibit high rates of taxation of any goods or services, and I’m pointing out that this is not so. Nor does the constitution provide for any particular price point or affordability criteria for guns, and nor does it guarantee that some lunatic like the one mentioned above should be entitled to have 1500 of them.
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### Author:  [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)
#### Post date: [July 10, 2016, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-profits-my-dear-gun-makers-cash-in/759502/40 "2016-07-10T22:49:48Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#):
>
> Access to guns is not guaranteed by the Constitution.
>
> “Keep” them if you have them, and “bear” them if you have them: yes (assuming you are part of a well-regulated Militia).
>
> Quote the part of the amendment that guarantees “access,” please.
That’s legal sophistry. The Constitution says the government can’t infringe on people keeping or bearing arms. Setting an intentionally high tax on firearms or ammunition would be infringing that right. And denying “access” to firearms is even more clearly an infringement.
Like I said, if you don’t like the law (and I personally don’t) work on changing it. Don’t try to weasel around it.
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