# The propaganda around the Russian ship Moskva **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [April 14, 2022, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-propaganda-around-the-russian-ship-moskva/962833 "2022-04-14T18:33:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2022, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-propaganda-around-the-russian-ship-moskva/962833/61 "2022-04-15T14:45:22Z")
Gilligan at this point. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2022, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-propaganda-around-the-russian-ship-moskva/962833/62 "2022-04-15T14:55:25Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > [_Moskva_](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_cruiser_Moskva). If you look under “builder” she was constructed at 61 Kommunara Shipbuilding Plant, which is the modern day [Mykolayiv Shipyard](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mykolayiv_Shipyard) located in Mykolaiv, Ukraine. _Admiral Kuznetsov_ was built in Nikolayev (now Mykolaiv), Ukrainian SSR. It’s like the Ukrainians saw this coming and sabotaged the ships decades ago! 🤡 ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2022, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-propaganda-around-the-russian-ship-moskva/962833/63 "2022-04-15T15:13:16Z")
> [@Askance](#): > > Shame then it was hit with two … Double tap. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2022, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-propaganda-around-the-russian-ship-moskva/962833/64 "2022-04-15T15:20:45Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > If we’re going to discuss Russian naval fubars, I’m obliged to post about the Baltic fleet [(video)](https://youtu.be/yzGqp3R4Mx4). Drachinifel, with his dry British humor, covered the 2nd Pacific Squadron in a 42-minute video, [“Voyage of the Damned.”](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Mdi_Fh9_Ag) ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2022, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-propaganda-around-the-russian-ship-moskva/962833/65 "2022-04-15T15:40:51Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > A four missile attack on a ship of that type should be very easy to defeat. Pretty much any ship in the US navy down to a frigate would’ve been fine. _ **If** _ they’re looking out and prepared for it, of course. But there would be no excuse for the Moskva in this circumstance to not be at the ready for a tactic of diversion or being attacked from more than one direction – except the aforementioned expectation that the Ukrainians must suck even worse than the Russians. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2022, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-propaganda-around-the-russian-ship-moskva/962833/66 "2022-04-15T16:20:08Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > _ **If** _ they’re looking out and prepared for it, of course They probably let their guard down since Putin assured them they were not at war ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2022, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-propaganda-around-the-russian-ship-moskva/962833/67 "2022-04-15T17:50:31Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > _Admiral Kuznetsov_ was built in Nikolayev (now Mykolaiv), Ukrainian SSR. > > It’s like the Ukrainians saw this coming and sabotaged the ships decades ago! Ukraine got _Kuznetsov_’s sister ship in the divorce and swiftly pawned it off on the Chinese ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2022, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-propaganda-around-the-russian-ship-moskva/962833/68 "2022-04-15T18:20:53Z")
> [@DesertDog](#): > > Double tap Hit me once shame on you. Hit me twice shame on me. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2022, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-propaganda-around-the-russian-ship-moskva/962833/69 "2022-04-15T18:37:21Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > They probably let their guard down since Putin assured them they were not at war “The warnings come _after_ the spell.” Stranger ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2022, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-propaganda-around-the-russian-ship-moskva/962833/70 "2022-04-15T18:40:02Z")
> [@DesertDog](#): > > > [@Mijin](#): > > > > If we’re going to discuss Russian naval fubars, I’m obliged to post about the Baltic fleet [(video)](https://youtu.be/yzGqp3R4Mx4). > > Drachinifel, with his dry British humor, covered the 2nd Pacific Squadron in a 42-minute video, [“Voyage of the Damned.”](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Mdi_Fh9_Ag) Hehehe, I recently ordered a shirt of the Kamchatka asking “Do you see torpedo boats?” > **[Do you see torpedo boats (Dark Text) | Drachinifels Dockyard](https://drachinifels-dockyard.myspreadshop.com/do+you+see+torpedo+boats+%28dark+text%29?idea=5de39cfcf9376416584be5e7)** > > Recommended for lighter colours ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2022, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-propaganda-around-the-russian-ship-moskva/962833/71 "2022-04-15T22:18:45Z")
Would it be useful here? Or just a big target? (Genuinely asking) ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2022, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-propaganda-around-the-russian-ship-moskva/962833/72 "2022-04-15T22:29:18Z")
Aircraft carriers are for raiding far flung targets. So unless Ukraine wants to attack Vladivostok, it would have no utility in this war. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2022, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-propaganda-around-the-russian-ship-moskva/962833/73 "2022-04-15T22:40:48Z")
A carrier in the area of the Black Sea would be a “hazard to navigation” in short order. No place to run, no place to hide and within range of roughly a jillion land-based radars. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2022, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-propaganda-around-the-russian-ship-moskva/962833/74 "2022-04-15T22:59:22Z")
We’ve pinpointed where she was hit. > **[Satellite Image Pinpoints Russian Cruiser Moskva As She Burned - Naval News](https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2022/04/satellite-image-pinpoints-russian-cruiser-moskva-as-she-burned/#prettyPhoto)** > > Analysis of radar satellite imagery has revealed the location of the Moskva soon after she was reportedly hit by 2 missiles. The Russian Navy cruiser was the flagship of the Black Sea Fleet and is a symbolic as well as naval loss for Russia. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2022, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-propaganda-around-the-russian-ship-moskva/962833/75 "2022-04-16T14:16:27Z")
> [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > I guess my thinking is “This is war and those damn Ukrainians hit our flagship! Remember the Moskva!!” is much better for propaganda purposes than “Shit happens.” The revenge slogans such as “Remember the Maine,” “Remember the Alamo” and “Remember Pearl Harbor” are born out of different events than normal military defeats. “Remember the Maine” had its origins in the yellow journalism and beat the drums that the dastardly evil Spanish made a cowardly attack on our peaceful ship and was useful tool in pushing America into war. “Remember Pearl Harbor” was a sneak attack, of course, prior to a declaration of war. > [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > Aircraft carriers are for raiding far flung targets. So unless Ukraine wants to attack Vladivostok, it would have no utility in this war. And god-awful expensive to maintain and operate. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2022, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-propaganda-around-the-russian-ship-moskva/962833/76 "2022-04-16T15:44:46Z")
Right. And, as far as I can tell from the reporting, Russia isn’t using conventional land based airpower very effectively. Naval aviation would be wasted. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2022, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-propaganda-around-the-russian-ship-moskva/962833/77 "2022-04-16T15:51:54Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > The revenge slogans such as “Remember the Maine,” “Remember the Alamo” and “Remember Pearl Harbor” are born out of different events than normal military defeats. > > “Remember the Maine” had its origins in the yellow journalism and beat the drums that the dastardly evil Spanish made a cowardly attack on our peaceful ship and was useful tool in pushing America into war. > > “Remember Pearl Harbor” was a sneak attack, of course, prior to a declaration of war. “Remember the Alamo” was an ordinary defeat, but the Mexicans executed all the Texians who surrendered. There was a similar massacre at Goliad earlier and the slogan “Remember Goliad” was also current during that war. It is less well-known, probably because Fess Parker wasn’t there. BTW, Pearl Harbor was only a sneak attack because the Japanese embassy in Washington was slow to translate the declaration of war and so delivered it some time after the initial attack. Probably wouldn’t have made any difference in its use in a revenge slogan, though. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2022, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-propaganda-around-the-russian-ship-moskva/962833/78 "2022-04-16T16:09:25Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > BTW, Pearl Harbor was only a sneak attack because the Japanese embassy in Washington was slow to translate the declaration of war and so delivered it some time after the initial attack. Probably wouldn’t have made any difference in its use in a revenge slogan, though. Japan declared war 7 1/2 hours after attacking Pearl Harbor in an imperial rescript published on the front page of [Japanese newspapers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_declaration_of_war_on_the_United_States_and_the_British_Empire). The 14 Part Message, which you are referring to and was delayed in decoding and translating, wasn’t a declaration of war. It didn’t even break off diplomatic relations, it only ended ongoing negotiations. Full text of the message [here](https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/PTO/Dip/Fourteen.html), the concluding line reads > The Japanese Government regrets to have to notify hereby the American Government that in view of the attitude of the American Government it cannot but consider that it is impossible to reach an agreement through further negotiations. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2022, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-propaganda-around-the-russian-ship-moskva/962833/79 "2022-04-16T16:43:25Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Japan declared war 7 1/2 hours after attacking Pearl Harbor What exactly changes with a formal declaration of war? Does it relate to conventions, whether actions might be considered ordinary crimes vs war crimes, whether a perpetrator is treated as a criminal or enemy combatant, something like that? Even if it made no practical difference, did it make any theoretical difference in the case of the Pearl Harbor attack? ---
**Author:** ![hellasketchy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f17d59/32.png) [@hellasketchy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hellasketchy)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2022, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-propaganda-around-the-russian-ship-moskva/962833/80 "2022-04-16T19:26:08Z")
From the Japanese government’s perspective, did they think that the last line of the 14 Part Message was a declaration of war? Not just a question of lost in translation but a very indirect style of formal speech - the Emperor announced surrender in a radio address with “the war situation has developed not necessarily to Japan’s advantage” and “we have ordered the acceptance of the provisions of the joint declaration of the powers.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-propaganda-around-the-russian-ship-moskva/962833.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-propaganda-around-the-russian-ship-moskva/962833.md?page=5)