Are you saying that Pearl Harbor was not designed to be a surprise attack? I have never heard that before. So there was supposed to be a public announcement of a Japanese declaration of war before the PH attack? That would have made the attack a lot less effective, wouldn’t it? The Japanese would have likely been met by manned AA batteries, fighter planes on patrol, and navy ships out at sea.
I have to admit, I feel kind of stupid for not knowing this.
I thought the plan was to declare war immediately before the attack took place and to do so somewhere other than Hawaii. So technically it wouldn’t be a surprise attack since a state of war existed, although there would have been no way to provide adequate warning to the base at Pearl Harbor. However, apparently I was wrong about that.
It’s a common misconception that the 14 Part Message was a declaration of war and the delay in decoding, translating and presenting it to Secretary Hull prevented Japan from properly declaring war prior to the attack on Pearl Harbor commenting. It wasn’t a declaration of war; it was a 5,000 word statement reiterating Japan’s position regarding negotiations between the US and Japanese governments and replying to a note sent to them on November 26, concluding with a declaration of termination of ongoing negotiations - Japan had been at war with China for years and the US was embargoing the sale of oil and other products to Japan. From here:
On November 26 the Secretary of State handed to the Japanese representatives a document which stated the principles governing the policies of the Government of the United States toward the situation in the Far East and setting out suggestions for a comprehensive peaceful settlement covering the entire Pacific area.
At 1 p.m. December 7 the Japanese Ambassador asked for an appointment for the Japanese representatives to see the Secretary of State. The appointment was made for 1:45 p.m. The Japanese representatives arrived at the office of the Secretary of State at 2:05 p.m. They were received by the Secretary at 2:20 p.m. The Japanese Ambassador handed to the Secretary of State what was understood to be a reply to the document handed to him the Secretary of State on November 26.
Secretary Hull carefully read the statement presented by the Japanese representatives and immediately turned to the Japanese Ambassador and with the greatest indignation said:
I must say that in all my conversations with you [the Japanese Ambassador] during the last nine months I have never uttered one word of untruth. This is borne out absolutely by the record. In all my 50 years of public service I have never seen a document that was more crowded with infamous falsehoods and distortions - infamous falsehoods and distortions on a scale so huge that I never imagined until today that any Government on this planet was capable of uttering them.
Hull had both already read the message as the US had cracked Japanese diplomatic cyphers and decoded and translated it faster than the Japanese diplomatic staff, and was aware that Japan had already bombed Pearl Harbor when he was presented with the message.
No, they did not think it was a declaration of war. Compare the final line of the 14 Part Message to the text of the Imperial Rescript declaring war, the first two paragraphs:
WE, by the grace of Heaven, Emperor of Japan, seated on the throne occupied by the same dynasty from time immemorial, enjoin upon ye, Our loyal and brave subjects:
We hereby declare War on the United States of America and the British Empire. The men and officers of Our Army and Navy shall do their utmost in prosecuting the war. Our public servants of various departments shall perform faithfully and diligently their respective duties; the entire nation with a united will shall mobilize their total strength so that nothing will miscarry in the attainment of Our war aims.
The indirect style and formal speech used in the Emperor’s surrender address actually led to much of the Japanese population being confused as to its meaning and not immediately understanding that it was a declaration of surrender as the word surrender was not used once in the speech.
I don’t know offhand any potential effects on war crimes with as opposed to without a formal declaration of war, but nobody makes formal declarations of war anymore. Starting a war with a surprise attack without a prior declaration of war was seen as an outrageously perfidious act to nations at the time of Pearl Harbor, though Japan had a history of having done this in 1904 at the start of the Russo-Japanese War:
Japan issued a declaration of war on 8 February 1904.[49] However, three hours before Japan’s declaration of war was received by the Russian government, and without warning, the Japanese Imperial Navy attacked the Russian Far East Fleet at Port Arthur.[50]
Back to the Moskva - I’m surprised Moscow hasn’t said it’s on a special underwater military operation.
… which is going exactly according to plan.
They really should hire Baghdad Bob to be their spokesman. Perfect man for the job, and I’m sure he’s not busy doing anything else.
Some web sites claim that he’s spent the last year decomposing, but it doesn’t seem to be definitive.
Nope. Absolutely not. The Imperial Japanese military and the military dominated government were playing games with the US, and intentionally carrying on sham diplomatic “negotiations” after the decision had been made to go to war. The deception included keeping the Japanese diplomats Nomura and Kurusu in Washington in the dark, so they would sincerely keep pushing for peace while the Japanese made their final preparations and moved their forces into positions.
These Japanese diplomats in Washington were shocked later to find that the military leaders leaders had decided for war by November 26, although the formal decision wasn’t made until an imperial conference with Hirohito on December 1st.
There were some within the military who wanted to attack without even this “final note” but others prevailed against that.
They knew exactly what they were doing. They intended to make the US think the showstoppers in the peace talks were still solvable without resorting to war while they prepared their sneak attack.
Since the end of WWII, the US has been engaged in a number of wars and operations, both large and small, but sharing the commonality that none have been declared wars. I think that makes us less likely to appreciate the shock of it in a time when “gentlemen” declared wars.
That said, I don’t think it would have made much of a difference to the general public. Countries tend to get patriotic when attacked, especially given the lack of cause as seen by Joe and Jane Citizen.
As per the above, it was designed to be a surprise attack, nothing else. They went to great lengths to carry out a deception, including conducting sham diplomacy.
That said, the US military was fully expecting that Japan could start hostilities soon. The Allies were aware the Japanese troop transports were headed to Malay, they were watching the buildup for forces in Formosa, like everyone was watching Russia build up forces before the invasion of Ukraine. They expected that Japan could likely attack the Philippines but really didn’t expect an attack at Pearl Harbor.
Despite that assessment, all forces and bases in the Pacific, including those on Hawaii were ordered to be on wartime level of alert. Which they were. Sort of.
The US Army was tasked with the defense of Hawaii and the fleet while in port and they had been on high alert, with the standby pilots sitting in the shades of their planes, prepared to take off. AA batteries were manned and ammo on hand and recon planes on patrol. Although they were going to be replaced later by better weapons the Army had 26 three-inch AA guns in fixed sites around PH, and another 30 mobile units, as well as many small caliber weapons.
Then Sunday happened and well, it’s Sunday, you know. When you aren’t used to being on full alert, you gotta take a break, let the crews relax, go home and put their ammo back in their bases, several miles away.
The transition from peacetime to war is a very steep curve and a lot of people die before you learn you can’t take regular breaks.
Don’t trust everything you read here. Many things posted about WWII are incorrect. People make mistakes and even when we report what we have learned correctly, research is constantly changing what we know about the war.
Getting back to the Moskva, here’s a Reuters article which gives a summary of the impact of the loss of the ship on Russia.
The Russians are very confused right now. The best option is admitting they sunk their own ship instead of admitting obvious enemy action. Ahhhh, dear Russian citizens, there was a galley fire, and, oh god, ahhhh, I, I don’t know. Ahhhhh. I snicker.
Only Russians can sink Russian ships !
How does Russia get ships to the Black Sea? The only entry point is controlled by a NATO country, Turkey, and Turkey has stated they will not permit Russian ships to pass the Bosporus Straight.
Turkey allowed them through before the war. Now, though, there won’t be any reinforcements. What you see is what you get.
Then the loss of the Battleship Potemkin truly is a tragic loss for the Great Imperial Russian Federation (GIRF). Excuse me while I dry my eyes.
Strictly speaking Moskva was able to transit out of the Black Sea and into the Mediterranean for deployments prior to the war -um, special military operation and her sister ships were able to leave the Black Sea to be homeported elsewhere. They were constructed in the Black Sea, Mykolaiv/Nikolayev was a major shipbuilding yard for the Soviet Union and Imperial Russia prior to that. All of the Soviet aircraft and helicopter carriers were built there, along with a large number of cruisers and other ships.
well, the now famous 2 photos of the Moscva in flames clearly show the gale-force-swell that finally sunk the boat
HERE
… unless - of course - the russians were stretching the truth a bit 
See the Montreaux Convention.
Basically during peace time, civilian ships can come and go as they please, and warships too with a little bit of planning and paperwork. It not being peacetime allows for some more blocking now.
The convention is annoying for Turkey because it can’t charge for passage, which is why they’re planning another canal, just be be able to have a freemium model for access to the Black Sea.
“There seems to be something bloody wrong with our ships…”
Except that in fact they do have a history of things just going bloody wrong with their ships. So the cover story was plausible at least.
And well, the cause of the loss was a major fire, they’re just arguing about what set the fire.
—
Come to think of it, this missed by a few days being on the 40th anniversary of the loss of HMS Sheffield, set on fire by a hit from an Exocet and sinking under tow a few days later.
I read today that an aggrieved father is quite upset that his son, a conscript who worked in the Moskva as a cook, suddenly appeared on a list of people missing in action without a trace. He vented his anger on Russias social network VKontakte, asking people to retweet (or whatever it is called on VKontakte) his post, because he was sure that it would be deleted again. In his post he complained that Putin had promised 2017 that no conscripts would serve on board of vessels and promised again in March that no conscripts or reservists would serve on this war special military operation. He also wrote that he would dedicate his days to finding out the truth of what happened, because when a father loses his son in this way, he has nothing left to fear. Cite (in German, probably paywalled).
And so the cry “Remember the Moskva!” acquires a new meaning.
BTW: I am not claiming the father is not real, or that his son does not exist: he (the father) has published some verifyable information too, including an article in a marine news bulletin about his son from before the war. But if we are taking about propaganda in this thread, I believe a VKontakte account is easy to fake.
It’s a damn shame that Russia, shortly after their annexation of Crimea, hadn’t renamed the ship Vladimir Putin.
Speaking of propaganda items, in 2020 the Orthodox chapel aboard Moskva was supposed to get a relic of the True Cross.
If so, lotsa good it did them.
